Two Years of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Treach
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:23 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Treach » Thu May 03, 2018 10:21 am

So much happening now. Is it the beginning of the end?

Will trump plead the 5th? Will he be indicted by Mueller? Will the Stormy Daniels case take him out?

Tune in next week to find out.

Jaster
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:17 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Jaster » Thu May 03, 2018 1:27 pm

I say we just appoint a special counsel to investigate every congressman and woman for collusion. I am not sure we would have any left, but it would serve a similar purpose as the current investigation :)

Enok
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Enok » Thu May 03, 2018 1:43 pm

Jaster wrote:I say we just appoint a special counsel to investigate every congressman and woman for collusion. I am not sure we would have any left, but it would serve a similar purpose as the current investigation :)


Right? I mean it's time for Extreme Vetting!

I'm not as cynical as you, but yeah, getting corruption and other crimes out of congress would probably be great for voters. I like how the defense for Trump is now "Well everyone makes mistakes! Nobody is perfect!" instead of "Things never happened!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!"

Vaen
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Thu May 03, 2018 10:48 pm

Jaster wrote:I say we just appoint a special counsel to investigate every congressman and woman for collusion. I am not sure we would have any left, but it would serve a similar purpose as the current investigation :)


Sure, I'll call. I'd say I don't know how you don't see how abnormal our current situation is, but I already knew by the third time I caught you parroting Fox & Friends or some shit.

Treach
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:23 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Treach » Fri May 04, 2018 1:46 am

Jaster wrote:I say we just appoint a special counsel to investigate every congressman and woman for collusion. I am not sure we would have any left, but it would serve a similar purpose as the current investigation :)


Collusion is actually not a legal term. The things they are investigating are aiding and abetting a foreign power in a crime and also bribery charges.

Also interesting to know that he can be charged with bribery from when he was nominated, not just when he was sworn into office.

Ashlee
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:02 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Ashlee » Fri May 04, 2018 8:31 am

Treach wrote:
Jaster wrote:
Also interesting to know that he can be charged with bribery from when he was nominated, not just when he was sworn into office.


Arguably. There is no statutory or decisional law that bars a sitting president from being indicted. All there is is a memo from a previous White House counsel opining that it cannot happen.

Vaen
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Fri May 04, 2018 1:30 pm

I think the charges as Treach outlined them aren't completely accurate -- but hey, that's because there are so many at this point that it's hard to keep up.

Take a look at one of the allegations brought up against Manafort from the DoJ memo last August:

Committed a crime or crimes by colluding with Russian government officials with respect to the Russian government’s efforts to interfere with the 2016 election for President of the United States, in violation of United States law.


The crime actually falls under the broader umbrella of election interference and the fact that it's an adversarial foreign power the Trump Campaign allegedly worked with just bolsters intent to interfere. Crimes needs intent and the major significance of 'collusion' is the intent.

That being said, I'm not expecting Trump to go down for "colluding" - I'm fully expecting him to go down for the repeated, public, and self-stated failed and successful attempts at obstructing justice. There's a reason why Trump talks repeatedly about collusion and it's because it's a more nebulous concept than his direct and obvious crimes related to obstruction. Remember how Clinton sat through a dozen pointless Benghazi hearings? Or how Bill Clinton showed up to his meeting with the special counsel and didn't ever overtly attack him? That's how officials under investigation normally have to behave to avoid adding "obstruction of justice" to the charges. That is not how Trump has acted.

Everything is also pointing to campaign finance law violations and money laundering and quid pro quo related to the collusion ("child adoption"), but I don't expect any of those things to be the catalyst.

Treach
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:23 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Treach » Fri May 04, 2018 8:54 pm

Vaen wrote:The crime actually falls under the broader umbrella of election interference and the fact that it's an adversarial foreign power the Trump Campaign allegedly worked with just bolsters intent to interfere. Crimes needs intent and the major significance of 'collusion' is the intent.


Yea I was wrong it isn't aiding and abetting, it would actually be a conspiracy charge.

- conspiracy to violate the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

- conspiracy to defraud the U.S. by interfering with our election.

Roberto
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:02 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Roberto » Fri May 04, 2018 9:26 pm

If you are hoping for obstruction of justice charges, there's zero chance that he goes down for those.

Not all laws require intent.

Vaen
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Fri May 04, 2018 10:50 pm

Roberto wrote:Not all laws require intent.


I feel like ya need to sort out the difference between 'laws' and a 'crimes' before you get far in on explaining the applicability of mens rea, but hey, it's the internet.


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