Two Years of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Jestin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:39 pm

The obvious answer is that both sides need to compromise. But you can only control the way you act, not someone else. The reason I try hard to communicate this point to Democrats is because I'm biased and think more highly of you guys than Republicans, and hope I have a chance to convince you.

Working with someone doesn't just mean coming to the table though, it means eliminating the condescension at least in attitude if not also in reality and trying to give the other side just enough to get what you want in return.

Surely you can see that the current strategy for both sides (which is essentially, hope for failure or even obstruct progress until we're finally back in power and THEN we can change things) is just not going to work. We have to make progress both when we're in power and when the other side is.

If you really think we're fucked anyway we still have to try. When you're falling off a cliff you still reach to grab a blade of grass for support even though you know it's not going to work :)

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Arkan » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:00 pm

The problem is that they just keep doubling down. No matter how shitty Trump gets, he then gets shittier. A dozen years ago there was Bush, and he sucked, but whatev. Then they were like, no we need to be crazier and meaner and so they made the Tea Party. Then that was not enough so we got Trump. And now we're getting more and more people like roy moore and rick saccone, who fortunately lost, but are part of the current Republican trend (Corey Stewart won the party nomination for VA Senate). Consider that despite all the shitty, baseless attacks on Obama, and him keeping a pretty darn level head over it, they never decreased the rhetoric. Is there really any hope?

I do like the sentiment of trying to get along, obviously. I just don't see it happening since it has to go both ways. Based on our leadership, we're building a wall in the south, banning muslims from traveling here, and defending the dudes who chant "Jews will not replace us." I just don't see how we can improve.

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Reyne » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:24 pm

Arkan wrote:How many more examples do we need of being completely shut out from working with Trump/Republicans? Hell, the only way to work with Trump is to do what he says. He has made that abundantly clear, even to members of his own party. How often does he kill his own party's legislative agenda through weird ass tweets? And why is the lesson that Democrats have to work with Republicans, but Republicans do not have to work with Democrats?

Also I'm tired of Democrats continually sliding to the right in an effort to compromise. Democrats nixed the public option in an appeasement to the GOP and then the GOP still voted against the healthcare bill pretty much unanimously. Now the DNC is saying they won't support candidates running with single payer as part of their platform.

Meanwhile a socialist running on actual progressive policies just defeated the #4 Dem in the House who had her outfunded 10 to 1 and had been there for 10 terms and was predicted to take over Pelosi's leadership. It was a blow out, too. Not even close. People are tired of it.

Bleh. I should be Mudding if I have this much time to post. In general I agree that it is good to cooperate and compromise with people you have disagreements with. It is also true that it goes both ways, though.

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:13 pm

Jestin wrote:I guess the point that I'm trying to make rather crudely is that I feel that most of the Democratic party has not learned the most important lessons from losing the election. It seems that at least one of you agree with me.

Just out of curiosity, why are you under such a strong impression that you know exactly the "right" lessons to take away from something like this, or have a better sense than anyone? Have you ever considered that the preponderance of evidence *in the very context we're talking about* might just outweigh whatever lessons you're extracting from the context of your career or whatever and projecting on to that separate context?

I get that it makes a great deal of sense to think "Hey, this is how I've operated and it's worked out great for me" and trying to apply it somewhere else to repeat success. Sometimes it works and that's great. Actually, I'd even go as far as to say that the fundamentals of what you're saying works in the business world far more often than not. Which is why it can be so jarring when the context you're dealing with is one where it just doesn't work and there are demonstrable and repeated examples of EXACTLY what you're suggesting blowing up. It's pretty foolish to refuse to adapt your strategy, essentially because it makes you feel good.

Have you ever heard of Third Way Democrats? It's basically a hybrid of center right economics with center left social policy (which is basically libertarianism minus extremism). If you look it up, you may recognize some of the most visible proponents of it because they were *the most* demonized between the 1990s and 2000s by the right and, after the crash of 2008 and the Tea Party, the left as well. Which is what makes your "Democrats must try something new and different!" followed by "they need to reach across more!" so bizarre - it's not really debatable that it's been tried. Every success since 2008 has actually suggested that the answer isn't necessarily reaching across, but OUT towards mobilizing fractions of non-electorate 60% that a) either have significant barriers to participation or b) aren't interested enough in centrist policies to see the difference between the two parties, or really even recognize when one party is clearly centrist and not "leftist" in any real sense of the word because the meter is so broken. There's nothing that really suggests that centrism is what Republicans were interested in from Clinton through Obama, and there's nothing that really suggests centrism is something liberals are interested in after the Great Recession, the Tea Party, and the alt right and resurgence of white nationalism.

I'm also curious as to the underlying motivation for the three of you in this or other discussions. I might be way off base here, but it really seems to me you guys have two main motivations: (1) to complain about Trump and his administration and (2) to swiftly and vehemently destroy both the people who would dare to support anything he does as well as any arguments they try to come up with.

I think thinking too deeply about peoples' motivation for posting about politics on a game forum is probably just a tad pointless. I don't know about others, but I post because there's stuff to say. I know I'm a big meanie head who seeks to "destroy" arguments, but I'm not going to apologize for actually having a stance that doesn't boil down to some fallacious-but-saccharine-until-somebody-actually-challenges-it version of "The world isn't black and white. No one does pure good or pure bad. It's all gray. Therefore, no one is better than anyone else."

If I'm right about your motivations, I think that at least you guys have not learned the most important lessons from the election loss. That lesson is basically: in order to make real progress, you must be able to work with people that you don't like and don't agree with. The whole tone of most of your posts is just so angry and condescending that the last thing on Earth someone would want to do is work with you on something. I feel exhausted just replying to your posts because of the level of vitriol that will probably be leveled at me in response to my posts. And I'm more aligned than most with you guys on most issues. Imagine how someone who disagrees with you - the people that you NEED to effect any real meaningful change - feel.

Speaking for myself, I think that your fundamental assumption is off because coming here to change hearts and minds is just a tad more self-importance than I give myself. Like, don't get me wrong, I'd wager I'm actually more involved and invest more than the average person on a portfolio of things that are aimed towards "real, meaningful change" - outreach to WoTMUD isn't necessarily among those things. See above for how important I think it is to waste energy changing the minds of people who can't see the difference between Trump and Clinton vs. blue ocean strategies for real change. Like, flip over to the Washington Post or NY Times, it's happening *right now -- like, tonight* in primaries.

Also, I know this "I'm aligned more with you, which is why I'm putting it on you" thing is meant to be some kind of conciliatory gesture, but in practice, you're basically just asking for something that's already comically unbalanced to be even more unbalanced. Hope you can at least see why the ask might not get as much traction as you'd hope at a point where we're literally using military bases to intern people and a sitting POTUS is using Twitter to dehumanize people and floating doing away with due process that's guaranteed whether you're a citizen or not.

This is a lesson that I have had to learn over and over again to have any success in my career. The number of hospital administrators, doctors, employees, investors, secretaries, and people in general that pissed me off over the last 5 years is incredible. In each one of those cases I could have taken the condescending route of "I know better than you, just fucking listen to me". But the moment you take that route, progress becomes almost impossible. You have to really try to understand other people's points of view and figure out a way to somehow work with them if you want to make real progress. That's what building something is all about.

"I know better than you, just fucking listen to me" is sort of what you're doing right now - I'm sort of at a loss at why you think it's not. Because you're trying to sound nice (but also hilariously bitter now that I've actually addressed a post at you)?

If your goal is to win debates in online forums, I'll give you what you want right now at least w.r.t. to me. All three of you are more informed than I am on most of these topics. I spend most of my time trying to build our company and our business. Keeping up with politics and current events is something I try to do in my spare time. You win, congratulations.

I'm sort of surprised that, in all that, you haven't learned "I've got a lot to do and can't be bothered with it" isn't a response that typically lands well when you're insisting your way is the right way over people you seem to know find the time to invest in something. That's shitty management and/or management consulting 101. And it's not even like it's a condemnation on your fundamental idea, which is fine and admirable - it's a condemnation of the fact that you don't seem to really consider or care that it's been tried and hasn't gone anywhere. "We've got to keep trying" doesn't mean much coming from a guy who doesn't seem to know the details of what's actually been tried.

But I'll leave this interaction hoping that I never have to work with you guys towards any real goal. Which I count as a loss for everyone.

Oh really? That's so upsetting, to sort of break the guy who tamed so many "administrators, doctors, employees, investors, secretaries, and people" into functional compromise.

Or maybe it's sort of expected and the dynamics of compromising with people with whom you're working towards "a real goal" is a tad different than people who just aren't ever seeing eye to eye with you on what that "real goal" is. Makes you think. Maybe amidst all that compromise, you can find a time or two where you've just worked around somebody or cut them out of the process as best you can to move forward.
Last edited by Vaen on Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Jestin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:27 pm

I think you make some great points Vaen and have given me stuff to read up on and think about. I genuinely appreciate it.

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Jestin » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:08 am

Oh and if you have any suggestions on recommended reading material I would much appreciate it. Books preferred that you believe to be unbiased if possible 8-)

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:13 am

Well, that's a slight issue because I don't believe anything is truly unbiased, but that's not synonymous with a lack of objectivity. 8-)

The only "seminal" work on it that I've ever read cover to cover is The Third Way: The Renewal of Social Democracy by Anthony Giddens back in the mid-2000s. It's from the 90s and has a pretty rosy view of the third way, but it's a pretty good overview of the concept. I remember it being mostly UK focused, but America is definitely in there. For lit on its failures and more recent demise, you're almost better off looking at JSTOR or long forms from reliably good publications. Just off the top of my head, two things have stuck out with regards to this specific topic: ... 822_59.pdf - a pretty good chapter on how Dems shifted towards the "New Democrats" approach, which is basically synonymous with the movement towards free market centrism in the 1990s. ... lintonism/ - more recent take on why the practice of reaching across economically never actually worked to build a strong coalition (like, NAFTA was unpopular among liberals in the 1990s - once it was adopted as a necessity for stronger free trade and generally worked out, look at how the narrative on it shifted)

I'll add more when I have some time later.

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Maghus » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:35 pm

this just in, normal swing voter scotus Anthony Kennedy announces his retirement. Giving trump his 2nd scotus pick thus far

will result in a far right supreme court for a very long time

trump promised to overturn roe v wade during the election

he also promised to ban abortion

this would turn the scotus in the favor of both those... this is huge

democrats should be on a quest looking for the fountain of life for ruth bader ginsburg right now. she wasnt looking to healthy last time i saw her

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Treach » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:24 am

Trump has gone full Russian. What is it gonna take to get him thrown out?

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Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Erulisse » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:00 pm

Республиканцам нужно было бы на самом деле избавиться от страны

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