One Year of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Lykan
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Lykan » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:32 pm

WOTMUD G8 Summit 2018! Dibs on Russia.

Vaen
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:13 pm

We're equating discrimination based on race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation/gender with refusing to serve somebody because this administration finally made good on its fascist overtones and started separating families and interning them. People in this administration ate out just fine before they crossed that bridge.

Vilac wrote:The difference with the baker is that they didn’t refuse service to them except for one type of item that would go against their religious beliefs of marriage. They offered service to bake any other cake for other events and offered to help find them bakers that could make them the wedding cake they desired. The decision made to side with the baker on this one has to do with religious freedoms.


Yeah, not really, at least not in the way you seem to think. The ruling doesn't revolve around the baker's religious freedom to refuse service, the central premise is that the adjudication process violated his religious freedom. The baker has a right to be given a ruling that wasn't potentially tainted by hostility towards religion. Since lower court documentation satisfied the idea that the commission showed hostility towards religion, that requirement wasn't satisfied. Basically, the ruling is on the process itself, not so much the substance of the case.

Key excerpt from the majority opinion written by Kennedy: "The Court's precedents make clear that the baker, in his capacity as the owner of a business serving the public, might have his right to the free exercise of religion limited by generally applicable laws. Still, the delicate question of when the free exercise of his religion must yield to an otherwise valid exercise of state power needed to be determined in an adjudication in which religious hostility on the part of the State itself would not be a factor in the balance the State sought to reach. That requirement, however, was not met here. When the Colorado Civil Rights Commission considered this case, it did not do so with the religious neutrality that the Constitution requires. Given all these considerations, it is proper to hold that whatever the outcome of some future controversy involving facts similar to these, the Commission's actions here violated the Free Exercise Clause; and its order must be set aside."

TL;DR: Colorado can still tell this guy to fuck off, but the cause of that has to be rooted in valid limitations of exercising religious freedom per applicable laws and the Constitution, not because "religion is dumb lol".

Vilac wrote:But apparently everyone is upset because the restaurant is taking significant heat over their decision. The owner had to have known it would have a split reaction with pros and cons which judging by her saying she would do it again, looks to be fine with it. The name and shame game works both ways I guess.


When it involves a public servant's Twitter account/platform, absolutely fuck no it doesn't work both ways. Be honest, how many people remember the baker who refused to host something for Biden based on politics back in 2012? I certainly didn't and don't really remember caring at the time. Slightly different scenario, but nowhere did Biden use his platform to bash the man or his business.

Also, perspective is funny. All I hear is whining about how it's discrimination to refuse to serve somebody because of things they have control over, i.e. don't get too wasted, don't take children away from their families and put them in detention facilities, etc.

Maghus
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Maghus » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:13 pm

you guys got really serious

im just trying to maga

scientifically accurate duck tales - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt4IlxFVT-g

Benito
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Benito » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:52 pm

Arkan wrote:And Obama DID receive plenty of criticism on that topic, but it came from the left. And it's very much a fact that Trump's policies in this area are Trump's policies, not Obama's.

Gotta echo this. I keep seeing conservatives complain that the left is whining about Trump's immigration policies after ignoring Obama's. The reality is that the left complained about Obama's deportations for years--but the right didn't care, and only seems to care now to the extent that their figurehead is under criticism. It's just another way of deflecting criticism and designed to shut down conversation (which I think is what Lykan's getting at) - and historically wrong.

One of the major differences seems to be that leftist criticism of Obama wasn't from elected Democrats or his own appointments. Meanwhile, Trump gets reamed by his own party, and his own appointments. It's a bad sign if everyone that works with you thinks you're an idiot.

In other news:

A spokesman for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has resigned over what he described as “false” and “misleading” statements made by Attorney General Jeff Sessions and ICE acting director Thomas D. Homan...

“It’s the job of a public affairs officer to offer transparency for the agency you work for,” Schwab told the Chronicle. “I’ve never been in a situation when I’ve been asked to ignore the facts because it was more convenient.”

Jestin
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Jestin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:06 pm

Yes Trump is an idiot. I think most educated conservatives know this, and more voted against Hillary than for Trump.

But what does it say about your party that you couldn't even beat Trump in the general election? Seriously sometimes I wonder if a monkey had a better chance of beating Trump than Hillary. And just in case, yes I voted her but mostly because I couldn't bear to vote for Trump.

It's generally a good principle in life to look at yourselves and fix things before complaining about others.

Vaen
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Vaen » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

Jestin wrote:Yes Trump is an idiot. I think most educated conservatives know this, and more voted against Hillary than for Trump.

But what does it say about your party that you couldn't even beat Trump in the general election? Seriously sometimes I wonder if a monkey had a better chance of beating Trump than Hillary. And just in case, yes I voted her but mostly because I couldn't bear to vote for Trump.

It's generally a good principle in life to look at yourselves and fix things before complaining about others.


Thanks-- now that we've heard from December 2016 Jestin, does June 2018 Jestin have anything to contribute here?

If you think the Democrats haven't shifted strategies, you simply aren't paying attention. If you think this says more about the candidates than it says about the electorate, you are not paying attention. If you think it's as simple as being introspective and "fix things", you are not paying attention. If you think it really simply came down to merits of the candidates alone, you are not paying attention. There's a lot to learn and people have talked ad nauseum about it. We've had ten billion articles trying to understand "economic anxiety" and "why people voted for Trump" from literally every angle. Just because you haven't been paying attention doesn't mean it hasn't been covered in the past year and a half.

Criticizing this shit-show of an administration doesn't require you to 'but Hillary' every step of the way.
Last edited by Vaen on Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Benito
Posts: 233
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Benito » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

Jestin wrote:It's generally a good principle in life to look at yourselves and fix things before complaining about others.

I'm not sure why you think this isn't happening, either for me personally or for the left as a whole. I didn't want Clinton as a candidate, and have plenty of criticisms of the Democratic party. I suspect that Democrats are going to repeat some of their same mistakes in the mid-term elections, namely, spend all their time harping on Trump rather than proposing distinct and progressive policies that acknowledge widespread concerns about "the system" while not feeding us back our worst fears and hatreds. That's my main reading of how and why Clinton lost - she could acknowledge some of the same problems but didn't have enough clear solutions. Trump pitting himself against the elite is pure rhetoric, and contrary to everything he's done as president, but Clinton's reluctance to pit herself against the powerful was obvious after her debates against Sanders.

However, what you're saying is another tactic to shut down criticism rather than have an actual discussion (which I do think is what you want), and it ignores the current location of power in national politics. Hilary Clinton doesn't matter now except as a historical case study.

Arkan
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Arkan » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:06 pm

Jestin wrote:Yes Trump is an idiot. I think most educated conservatives know this, and more voted against Hillary than for Trump.


Shows how incredibly stupid those people are. Government is in disarray cause they sucked enough propaganda dick to vote someone who can't even manage his own business well. Remember, Hillary was POPULAR with high approval ratings before the primaries began. Sure, we can monday morning quarterback the election, but someone who was experienced, pragmatic, and smart lost an election to someone who was none of the above. As Vaen put it, that says more about the electorate than the candidates and you're going to have to come up with something a lot better than an electoral college victory to say he was actually a better candidate. Erdogan keeps winning so is it that no one better has run against him? Of course not. And keep in mind, Hillary has never lost the popular vote of an election.

So let's look at the trade wars, the US's image abroad, declining health care and increasing health care costs. Let's examine the several dozen environmental protection rules that have been changed and decreasing the sizes of national monuments, which are for everyone, not the select few. Let's consider the tax breaks for the wealthy and how the debt is expected to equal the economy by 2028. How about the use of presidential power to hurt political opponents economically or get trademarks from china or approval for trump buildings in Argentina and other countries. Why is our president attacking our closest allies and giving away intelligence secrets simply to brag, despite the fact that Trump rarely, if ever, goes to any of his daily intelligence briefings? I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have legitimate policy issues, not bullshit like birthers, and keep in mind, Trump is a birther himself.

Democrats have policy issues with Trump, but Trump does not have policy issues with Democratics, he has partisan issues.

Jestin
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Jestin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:04 pm

I guess the point that I'm trying to make rather crudely is that I feel that most of the Democratic party has not learned the most important lessons from losing the election. It seems that at least one of you agree with me.

I'm also curious as to the underlying motivation for the three of you in this or other discussions. I might be way off base here, but it really seems to me you guys have two main motivations: (1) to complain about Trump and his administration and (2) to swiftly and vehemently destroy both the people who would dare to support anything he does as well as any arguments they try to come up with.

If I'm right about your motivations, I think that at least you guys have not learned the most important lessons from the election loss. That lesson is basically: in order to make real progress, you must be able to work with people that you don't like and don't agree with. The whole tone of most of your posts is just so angry and condescending that the last thing on Earth someone would want to do is work with you on something. I feel exhausted just replying to your posts because of the level of vitriol that will probably be leveled at me in response to my posts. And I'm more aligned than most with you guys on most issues. Imagine how someone who disagrees with you - the people that you NEED to effect any real meaningful change - feel.

This is a lesson that I have had to learn over and over again to have any success in my career. The number of hospital administrators, doctors, employees, investors, secretaries, and people in general that pissed me off over the last 5 years is incredible. In each one of those cases I could have taken the condescending route of "I know better than you, just fucking listen to me". But the moment you take that route, progress becomes almost impossible. You have to really try to understand other people's points of view and figure out a way to somehow work with them if you want to make real progress. That's what building something is all about.

If your goal is to win debates in online forums, I'll give you what you want right now at least w.r.t. to me. All three of you are more informed than I am on most of these topics. I spend most of my time trying to build our company and our business. Keeping up with politics and current events is something I try to do in my spare time. You win, congratulations. But I'll leave this interaction hoping that I never have to work with you guys towards any real goal. Which I count as a loss for everyone.

Arkan
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Arkan » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:20 pm

How many more examples do we need of being completely shut out from working with Trump/Republicans? Hell, the only way to work with Trump is to do what he says. He has made that abundantly clear, even to members of his own party. How often does he kill his own party's legislative agenda through weird ass tweets? And why is the lesson that Democrats have to work with Republicans, but Republicans do not have to work with Democrats?


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