One Year of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Enok
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Enok » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:32 am

Fuujin wrote:The wealthy in America attacked communism because communism works for the people, not the wealthy, and they were afraid of what would happen if workers cared enough about themselves to change the system


Can I just say that communism works for no one? Much like game theory, it assumes perfect rationality and that's just not going to happen with people involved. More people have died to communism than to facism so let's not go overboard on flawed ideology. As a philosophical counterweight it serves a purpose, but it'll never work.

Treach
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:23 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Treach » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:30 am

Maghus wrote:If not then he is the antichrist. Im open to both. Im 100% serious.

I would have thought that having delusions of grandeur about yourself would be the most fun part about being a crazy person. It is kinda sad that instead you are having delusions of grandeur about an orange baboon like Trump instead. You got ripped off, I would ask for a refund.

Mronz
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Mronz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:34 am

Reyne wrote:
Mronz wrote:To each according to their need, so simply because someone needs something, they are to receive it?
From each according to their ability, you expect taxes to be paid by those based on their individual ability?
Is this ability, as in their physical/intelictual ability, regardless of whether they are productive or lazy, or is ability meaning based on their income, not actual their potential ability?


Certain things should be human rights. Healthcare, housing, food, water etc. We as a species have more than enough wealth to provide these basic things for all. It's just that literally 8 people own half the PLANET's wealth.

Mronz wrote:"but I think the simple fact that such a society is possible"
What is the present example, showing this society is possible and sustainable?


Scandinavia? Portugal? Many others in Europe?

It's funny to me that people lately love to point at Venezuela, then say "X isn't REAL socialism" when those are brought up, but then Obama is literally a Marxist-Leninist hellbent on the destruction of the USA because he wanted... a single payer healthcare option???

Besides, your argument here basically is "this is the best we can do." I disagree. We can do better than a system which results in most people struggling while climate change comes to kill us all. People just want everyone to just shut up and accept the status quo because attempts to improve or change failed in the past so we should never try to tweak anything ever again and besides things are more or less fine now anyway - basically what aristocrats said in defense of feudalism. Well, it fell apart eventually and I think it is naive to assume we are at the end of history now and that neoliberal economics is more or less the best we can come up with. Friedman in particular has a lot of just straight disproven nonsense in his work.

Mronz wrote:Regardless of past or present foreign policy, I see no "requirement or moral responsibility" of a prosperous nation to allow non-citizens to enter that nation, expecting to be taken care of, provided assistance, simply because their home nation sucks...
That would be like someone from a ghetto in Dallas, walking into a rich neighborhood, knocking on a mansion door, and demanding to be fed, given a bed, and requiring said family fire their existing maid, to give the newcomer a job, simply because their homelife was terrible.
Perhaps I'm not understanding, but that makes no since at all.


Historically, every single time the USA has accepted immigrants, skilled or not, we have massively benefited. More people equals more goods and services required to sustain them which means more jobs etc. We are creating demand, as opposed to giving rich people tons of money and hoping they somehow supply-side us all to a better life. The wealth of this country is hugely based on the labor of migrants.

Aside from that we absolutely have a moral responsibility when it is directly because of our actions that their home nation is in dire straights, as often is the case. Maybe hey let's stop messing with their elections, overthrowing democratically elected leaders, putting pressure on them to pass economic policies detrimental to themselves but to our benefit, causing rampant inflation, having an insane drug war which does nothing but put billions in the hands of cartels...

You don't want people flooding the border? Maybe actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE because we're going to have millions of climate refugees within decades at this pace. Rising sea levels aren't just a fantasy, even Trump is building seawalls around his properties.

Mronz wrote:If said person wants a better life, work hard, figure something out, and eventually move yourself out of your ghetto, don't expect someone else to do it for you.


Ah so, "just world" basically. It is never a systemic issue, it is always on the individual, if someone is struggling it is 100% their fault always. Propaganda brainwashing.

There is a huge group of people not working hard whatsoever while collecting the huge lion's share of the wealth society produces and it isn't immigrants or poor people. It's people engaged in rent seeking activities while contributing nothing (such as telecomms exploiting a natural monopoly and using lobby power to shut out competition), it's my billionaire landlord who buys up all the apartment complexes in the area, has someone else manage it, and cranks rents because he can - sucking money away from people actually contributing to the consumer spending driving the economic engine in order to run up his high score some more. It's people like the Waltons who pay their employees below the poverty line which results in gov't subsidy of their labor costs (since the employees then need food stamps or welfare help) but meanwhile collect billions of dollars for themselves to do crap like hoard artworks in their own private museum.

Plus, there is fundamental flaw with your reasoning - we will *always* need people on the "bottom rung." We need janitors, food service workers, farmers, etc. We can't all be STEM employees. Why should the people on the bottom level of the societal pyramid be completely screwed? Why should we have ghettos and wide swathes of poverty at all? Rawls has a lot to say about this with regard to his "veil of ignorance."

Long post already but;

The "veil of ignorance" is a method of determining the morality of political issues proposed in 1971 by American philosopher John Rawls in his "original position" political philosophy. It is based upon the following thought experiment: people making political decisions imagine that they know nothing about the particular talents, abilities, tastes, social class, and positions they will have within a social order. When such parties are selecting the principles for distribution of rights, positions, and resources in the society in which they will live, this "veil of ignorance" prevents them from knowing who will receive a given distribution of rights, positions, and resources in that society. For example, for a proposed society in which 50% of the population is kept in slavery, it follows that on entering the new society there is a 50% likelihood that the participant would be a slave. The idea is that parties subject to the veil of ignorance will make choices based upon moral considerations, since they will not be able to make choices based on their own self- or class-interest.

As Rawls put it, "no one knows his place in society, his class position or social status; nor does he know his fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities, his intelligence and strength, and the like." The idea of the thought experiment is to render obsolete those personal considerations that are morally irrelevant to the justice or injustice of principles meant to allocate the benefits of social cooperation. The veil of ignorance is part of a long tradition of thinking in terms of a social contract that includes the writings of Immanuel Kant, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Jean Jacques Rousseau, and Thomas Jefferson.


Based on this, why should our janitors, food service workers, etc. be struggling just to meet basic necessities? While their employers are so wealthy they go on twitter to say "idk what to do with all my money, but screw paying employees more... spaceships it is" (Bezos).

It's madness and most people my age can plainly see it. Even from a purely capitalist free market point of view, we're literally shooting ourselves in the foot by sucking money away from everyone who actually spends it in the economy in order to give it to people who already don't know what to do with all the money they have (so they hoard it by the trillions in tax havens) in the hope that somehow they'll magic us all out of poverty with some new exciting product, even though no one can afford to buy it. We've kiinda gotten around that with access to easy credit but that house of cards can't just be built forever. Henry Ford didn't give his workers decent wages and a day off because he was just nice, he did it because he wanted them to be able to afford and use his product. In the modern day we've been bamboozled by some utterly fake "trickle down" thievery. I say utterly fake because it was a joke as early as the 1890s - Horse-Sparrow economics, or "feed a horse enough oats and there will be enough left over in its feces to feed the sparrows, too."

e: Also I pay 40% of my income to rent (just rent, not utilities, insurance, etc.) unless I want to live 2-3 hours away from my decently well paid job (plus then cost of transportation, insurance, my time, etc. it's not like it would just be way cheaper to live that far). I went to college, got good grades, got a "real" degree, did everything I was supposed to do. I'm not loaded down with debts, I carry no credit card debt, I don't spend all my money on avocado toast or whatever other condescending thing the media has decided millennials blow all their money on. Saving up enough for a down payment is probably not going to happen anytime soon, even if I subsist on Ramen noodles. I still have it a lot better than many others my age.

It's just a struggle to even have any kind of savings or feel like I'm making any progress. Spinning my wheels to make my landlord his rent money. It's not a question of "poor people are just lazy." Not when 6 of 10 Americans don't even have $500 saved up (Bankrate report, also the Fed in 2017 reported that "44 percent of all respondents could not cover an unexpected $400 emergency expense or would rely on borrowing or selling something to do so. The survey also shows that many adults have no savings for retirement.")

Forget about kids any time soon, since I probably won't have any by accident and I'm not having one while I can barely support myself.

Okay this is now an essay but let me also just mention that 1 in 3 GoFundMe campaigns are for medical bills. We literally have people begging on the internet so they don't die of easily treated conditions/diseases (and sometimes it fails - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shane ... r-insulin/). There is something deeply wrong here.


Reyne, thanks for the thought out novel, am still reading/pondering, and looking at some of what you presented.

Fuujin
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Fuujin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:44 am

Maghus wrote:Everything you stated are things that happened before trump. Both democrat and rep. All those same dems and reps both railed against trump. Bush jr went on talk shows to talk bad about trump. Trump is something diff. I personally think he is a biblical character. Elijah or the 2nd coming. The first sign of the end times is the "trumpets". Trump Pence. If not then he is the antichrist. Im open to both. Im 100% serious.


So? My point was that America was never great. The fact that all of this white supremacy, sexism, and other manner of bigotry and oppression has occurred under the leadership of both sides is only proof of the fact that it never was and still ain't.

Enok wrote:
Fuujin wrote:The wealthy in America attacked communism because communism works for the people, not the wealthy, and they were afraid of what would happen if workers cared enough about themselves to change the system


Can I just say that communism works for no one? Much like game theory, it assumes perfect rationality and that's just not going to happen with people involved. More people have died to communism than to facism so let's not go overboard on flawed ideology. As a philosophical counterweight it serves a purpose, but it'll never work.


No. You cannot say that, because it's patently untrue. Your understanding of communism or socialism is flawed if you think that it required perfect rationalization from all the individuals involved. Your history regarding communism is equally as flawed if you perpetuate the myth that more people have died to it than fascism. Communism is deeply rooted in the manner in which indigenous tribes around the world operated. It can and it will work when it is not immediately attacked by the cabal of nations ran by oligarchies bent on preventing a rise against their power.

Enok
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Enok » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:34 am

That's just not true, Fuujin. There isn't a single, large scale, example of working communism and there never was. To suggest that my understanding of communism is flawed is just the same as saying that unhindered (no regulation), free market capitalism will work just fine if everyone would just act in the interest of themselves. Sooner or later there will be people/entitites who do not want to compete on equal terms and that's the end of fair competition and the perfect image of the invisible hand.

Also, it's not a myth to say that more people died to communism. The numbers are obvious. Here's ONE example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

The fact that Hitler murdered his share of people doesn't make facism worse, in numbers, than China and the USSR who both deliberately let people starve to death. For the greater good of the party/nation.

I have a relative who fled from camps in Sibiria and whose father was jailed and murdered by the russians for being a christian preacher. Her stories are strikingly similar to those told by survivors of the holocaust.

I don't know about your background, but most of Europe fear communism as much as facism.

Fuujin
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Fuujin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:17 am

I never said there was a large scale example. I said communism is modeled after the ways in which indigenous tribes around the globe operated.

I knew you were going to suggest Holodomor was an "example" of communism killing people, but that's complete nonsense. Suggesting that communism killed people through a famine is ridiculous. Churchill purposefully stole food from India to fuel their war effort in Europe, creating a massive food shortage that killed untold millions too and he just shrugged his shoulders stating he didn't care if the Indians died. On the other hand, "scholars" have only been able to make conjectures, with no actual factual basis for the accusation that Stalin purposefully starved Ukrainians. This is simply part of the wide-spread anti-Communism campaign that has existed since WW2. If we're going to put a deathtoll on communism' head for something as ridiculous as this than the list of things which capitalism is guilty of gets even larger: slavery? capitalism. Colonialism and imperialism? Capitalism. The hundreds of millions of deaths as a result of western society's greed and racism and warmongering? Capitalism. I could go on.

The first step is recognizing the massive and wide-spread anti-Communism campaign by western powers and educating ourselves on the truth. It becomes far too easy once you do to recognize the inherent failures of capitalism and the evil nature of the system. The fact that the US and its oligarchs have spent far more effort and energy in the post WW2 era spreading propaganda against communism instead of issues like racism, white supremacy, the patriarchy, and other violent systems of oppression is telling.

Yes, China and Russia were totalitarian single party dictatorships. I'm not making excuses for their governments and the evils they perpetuated. They were not communist, however. They used the appealing ideas of communism to solidify or garner power while never actually implementing communism in any large way.

I understand how scary the C-word has become in Europe and the US. This is entirely due to the propaganda the US has been central in spreading. Thankfully my generation, in the US at least, has gotten wise to the evils of capitalism and the natural benefits of Socialism/communism (I prefer the former over the latter, if I'm being honest) and are doing better at educating ourselves and others. It may take some time, but I fully anticipate the US's leftward swing in my life time and a dispelling of these myths, propaganda, and lies that have been left to lie for decades.

Roadeur
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:22 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Roadeur » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:25 am

Really interesting discussion, but we're arguing for extremes here. I think one fascinating observation looking in on the American system is that there seems to be an entrenched belief by a large share of the populace that socialist is some sort of 'slippery slope' to communism. So a country that moves towards shared contributions for improved social welfare is somehow inevitably going to become the communist Soviet Union.

Particularly interesting because from my perspective, the 'slippery slope' to fascism is a terrible thing, but I don't in any way feel like socialism is some sort of terrible 'slippery slope' to comprehensive communism.

Fascism - 'simple steps' include attacking a free press, inciting division, exploiting the 'other', bigotry, violence against dissenters and/or the 'other'
Communism - 'simple steps' include more equal distribution of wealth, social safety nets for the population, universal healthcare, (hopefully) the goal of a more inclusive society.

I'm not denying that the idea of extreme communism is a terrible thing, the given examples of mass starvation are a good representation of why, but equating the steps noted above as being an inherently bad thing seems frankly bat-shit crazy.

Treach
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:23 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Treach » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:45 am

I honestly think that in 10-20 years we won't have a choice any more. With the advent of automation and AI we are going to need some sort of universal living wage from the government. There are millions and millions of unskilled jobs that are going to vanish. Unless we want all these people to starve...

Fuujin
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Fuujin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:51 am

An excellent point. I firmly believe that the two opposite ends don't mean that they're both bad. The opposite of equality is inequality. There's no argument to be made that equality is bad. The opposite of fascism and capitalism are communism/socialism. I don't believe for a second that, done democratically, they are bad. Centrism, however, is bad. It's rooted in maintaining the status quo and particularly in the US where the status quo is a white supremacist patriarchy, it is dangerous. It's dangerous for me as a black bisexual and disabled man who, in spite of my service in the military, struggles to get by and make do. It's dangerous to the millions of people of color, women, and LGBT who suffer from the unending oppression of a system that profits off our suffering. Centrism and the argument that the far right and left are just two sides of the same coin endanger our ability to achieve equality and economic security.

Maghus
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Maghus » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am

Treach wrote:
Maghus wrote:If not then he is the antichrist. Im open to both. Im 100% serious.

I would have thought that having delusions of grandeur about yourself would be the most fun part about being a crazy person. It is kinda sad that instead you are having delusions of grandeur about an orange baboon like Trump instead. You got ripped off, I would ask for a refund.


I don't think I have delusions of grandeur, I just think I'm special. I have been meditating lately and trying to channel the one power. I found this program from 1989 that syncs the two different frequencies of the brain. I found out about it from a recent CIA FOIA release. They were using it on people. I think it may have something to do with channeling.

https://archive.org/details/CompleteHem ... enceManual

I also have a theory that people diagnosed with schizophrenia are actually in the process of kundalini awakening and it may have something to do with all of this as well.

Schizophrenia:

1. affects people seemingly at random
2. (gifted) people who are trying to find "the theory of everything"
3. lonely people and people who have suffered a lot

Kundalini:

1. can be initiated spontaneously
2. intense mental preparation on all matters like metaphysics, philosophy, etc
3. through suffering or an ascetic lifestyle

Schizophrenia / Kundalini has 2 components: Energy and Vision.

5-meO-DMT is the Energy in its pure form. It can be found in the cerebrospinal fluid and higher than normal concentration has been measured in people with psychosis.

n,n-DMT is the Vision in its pure form and can be found in the pineal gland. Because 5-meO-DMT has 2 effects on you: it amplifies consciousness (up to infinity) and kills ego. Ego is D3 in the hippocampus a.k.a. the reptilian brain (reptiles are ego driven animals). Olanzapine is the only antipsychotic with any effect because it blocks enough 5-HT (serotonin) to block the pathway to the pineal gland.

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