One Year of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Roadeur
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:22 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Roadeur » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 am

Treach wrote:I honestly think that in 10-20 years we won't have a choice any more. With the advent of automation and AI we are going to need some sort of universal living wage from the government. There are millions and millions of unskilled jobs that are going to vanish. Unless we want all these people to starve...


Also firmly agree with this point. It amazes me how little policy focus is put on this. Universal basic income is likely to be the only way to legitimately continue to exist in a stable democracy. The US has a whole lot further to go on embracing that idea than many European countries.

Fuujin
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Fuujin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:01 am

I think given how little the rich care about the devastating impacts of global warming that are coming, evidenced by their concerted efforts to ensure the US and other countries maintain a course that ensures them profits, that they don't really GAF about any of the people who would starve or suffer worse in an increasingly automated society. Republicans have pushed the ridiculous "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality and convinced its base that 100% of an individuals problems are the individuals fault and hard work alone can overcome it. They've been blinded to the reality that they're being robbed by the wealthy, poisoned by industries that only care about profit, and having their future stolen from them.

I'm rarely a doomsayer, but without UBI and single-payer healthcare the US will collapse.

Thankfully, in the US at least, GenY and GenZ are increasingly progressive and leftist. It's just a matter of us getting our hands on the reigns and ripping them from those who want to steer us into ruin.

Reyne
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Reyne » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:29 am

Enok wrote:. More people have died to communism than to facism


Citation needed. Holodomor numbers are literally based from Nazi propaganda at the time and thus are of questionable accuracy. Ukraine was always famine prone region, they had it worse under the Czar. I guess the Soviets paid the clouds not to rain! Stalin screwed up but genocide on the level of the holocaust? Eh that's very questionable and use of the word "genocide" itself with regards to the Ukraine famine is the subject of much debate among historians. They had a couple bad harvests and probably pushed industrialization way too hard. Stalin was an asshole. I don't think anyone deliberately wanted to genocide Ukrainians like the Nazis wanted to genocide everyone that wasn't them. There's nothing inherent to socialism/communism that demands mass murder of different ethnicities unlike fascism, which has that as a central tenet.

Also kind of a poor comparison anyway because if you look at what the Nazis were planning if they had won, they would have slaughtered tens of millions of 'undesirables.' They were only in power for a relatively short amount of time and still killed millions in an industrialized fashion.

Again, Portugal and Scandinavian countries exist, as well.

Also my entire family is from Communist E. Europe, if we're going to play that game.

Also if capitalism is so much better naturally then why did the USA rig the 1996 election in Yeltsin's favor? It's no big secret what happened. Then Yeltsin appointed Putin a few years after that and here we are! Seems like we (the USA) repeat the same foreign policy mistakes over and over. Polls from that part of the world show most people want things the way they were, as obviously capitalism has not delivered on any of its promises.


Anyway Stalin sucked and all but as was said this is all kind of moot anyway though because it's absurd to bring up the USSR when we're just talking about very simple things like socialized medicine that other countries have already done - not full economic system overhaul overnight. No one is talking about collectivizing farms (which they basically already are in the USA just under corporate banners, but anyway). I'm not going to stop pushing for something better because people a hundred years ago in wildly different conditions to ours didn't succeed.

Fun fact the USA has more people in prison, mostly for non violent drug offences, than the USSR ever did even at the height of Stalin's gulags. Our prisoners are also treated like shit, kept in horrible conditions, and are often forced to work corporate prison-sourced jobs for pennies an hour (taking jobs from regular people not that the companies care). So, we're locking people up on some Drug War bullcrap which then doesn't actually work to solve anything and putting them into a screwed up Justice System from which most can't ever escape again, and making them work for corporate profits. They have no rights, they can't even vote. Disproportionately minorities/black people imprisoned. This is just... slavery with some extra steps. Most conservatives I mention this to kind of shrug at me and say "well, they are prisoners they deserve it." By "forced" I mean "work your assignment or go into solitary until you do." The USA isn't exactly on some moral high ground here.

It's weird to me that any attempts to fix our current system immediately becomes "what about the Soviets though." well, what about them? If you DON'T want some revolution bringing chaos then you should want to reform what isn't working in a peaceful way instead of telling people suffering to pound sand and it's their own fault anyway. Wouldn't have been an October Revolution if the czars didn't screw up so bad.

Enok
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Enok » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:27 pm

Reyne wrote:Citation needed. Holodomor numbers are literally based from Nazi propaganda at the time and thus are of questionable accuracy. Ukraine was always famine prone region, they had it worse under the Czar. I guess the Soviets paid the clouds not to rain!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Felt like wiki was easy enough to take a look at but oh well, here it is. Ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR. Literally. Always prone to famine? Agree to disagree.

Look, Holodomor is well documented and researched. It's a very well known example of induced famine.

Excerpt:

A U.N. joint statement signed by 25 countries in 2003 declared that 7-10 million perished.[16] Research has since narrowed the estimates to between 3.3[17] and 7.5[18] million. According to the findings of the Court of Appeal of Kiev in 2010, the demographic losses due to the famine amounted to 10 million, with 3.9 million direct famine deaths, and a further 6.1 million birth deficit.[19]


I doubt all of the background research was from nazi archives.

Also my entire family is from Communist E. Europe, if we're going to play that game.


Good, ask them about communism. Ask them about Gulags. You sound smart enough so you probably know about them already. I'm not playing a game. My wife's grandmother literally fled from the soviets across the baltic sea while her father was left rotting in a concentration camp.

Anyway Stalin sucked and all but as was said this is all kind of moot anyway though because it's absurd to bring up the USSR when we're just talking about very simple things like socialized medicine that other countries have already done - not full economic system overhaul overnight. No one is talking about collectivizing farms (which they basically already are in the USA just under corporate banners, but anyway).


Fuujin brought up communism as an ideal, I didn't. I said it doesn't work but maybe my wording implied something completely different. Our (Sweden's) social democracy isn't communism. It's built upon a functional, export heavy, global market economy. If communism is the ideal then I say you don't know what you're asking for nor what you're talking about. Bernie Sanders isn't a communist. Socialized medicine isn't communism. Get your -isms straight.

Now, before you take my head off, I'm not anti-social democratic values. Quite the opposite. I recommend a single payer system, but it has to have a backbone of taxable income which is impossible without a thriving market economy. Capitalism works. It just needs regulation. Communism doesn't work. That's my point.
Last edited by Enok on Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Naomi
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:34 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Naomi » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:27 pm

This is a very interesting thread to read. I like what some if you are saying, and I disagree with quite a bit too.

Either way, it's neat to see conflicting viewpoints.

Mronz
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Mronz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:40 pm

Fuujin "
Thankfully my generation, in the US at least, has gotten wise to the evils of capitalism and the natural benefits of Socialism/communism (I prefer the former over the latter, if I'm being honest) and are doing better at educating ourselves and others. It may take some time, but I fully anticipate the US's leftward swing in my life time and a dispelling of these myths, propaganda, and lies that have been left to lie for decades."

Hopefully, my generation will continue to prevent this, because I can't even imagine an America where people expect the government, using tax dollars, to pay out "universal wages". You realize you are saying the government has to pay people... for not working... The entire point of having money or a wage is payment for performing work.

If your job is taken over by technology, blame cries for constant wage or benefit hikes, leading to it being more cost effective to invest in tech, not you as a person to perform the same task.
Next step, learn a different trade or skill that again will lead to you being marketable in the workforce, don't just expect someone else to feed you, house you, and also give you money too.

Reyne
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Reyne » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:44 pm

Enok wrote:Capitalism works. It just needs regulation. Communism doesn't work. That's my point.


I think the point with Capitalism though is that no matter how you regulate it over time it becomes busted again as the people who accumulate wealth work to remove regulations (Piketty has basically documented this phenomenon empirically). For the most part I think we need something new rather than to keep defending failed ideologies. Do a Hegel mash them together take what works drop what doesn't give it a fancy new term. Communism as the Soviets did it obviously isn't the solution, agreed.

I am hopeful for worker coops.

Mronz wrote:If your job is taken over by technology, blame cries for constant wage or benefit hikes, leading to it being more cost effective to invest in tech, not you as a person to perform the same task.
Next step, learn a different trade or skill that again will lead to you being marketable in the workforce, don't just expect someone else to feed you, house you, and also give you money too.


I dunno how we all feel about memes here but this is pretty much how I feel that statement:

Image

It seems to me that as humanity collectively develops new technologies and discovers new ways to be efficient, the benefits should come to everyone. We should, at this point, have significantly shorter workweeks with higher wages. Instead, a capitalist at the top decides completely un-democratically what is to be done with the profit of everyone's collective labor which of course is always to their own benefit and to the detriment of the workers. The disparity in wealth is madness, it is worse now than during the "Gilded Age." This isn't even healthy capitalism.
Last edited by Reyne on Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Enok
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Enok » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:49 pm

Mronz wrote:Hopefully, my generation will continue to prevent this, because I can't even imagine an America where people expect the government, using tax dollars, to pay out "universal wages". You realize you are saying the government has to pay people... for not working... The entire point of having money or a wage is payment for performing work.


No offense, but I don't think you "get" the future of automation.

Rig
Posts: 1591
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: JESUS

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Rig » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:04 pm

Everyone may take a test to be allowed into my country.

Rigtopia, the future of the world.

Here we have one ruler, me of course. We provide free healthcare for those who work, we legalized weed and taxed it, and we have a very successful government consisting of me, me, and me.

Some may call me a dictator because I execute those who do not agree with my ideology. I like to think of myself as a problem solver. Join my country today!

Roadeur
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:22 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Roadeur » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:09 pm

Enok wrote:
Mronz wrote:Hopefully, my generation will continue to prevent this, because I can't even imagine an America where people expect the government, using tax dollars, to pay out "universal wages". You realize you are saying the government has to pay people... for not working... The entire point of having money or a wage is payment for performing work.


No offense, but I don't think you "get" the future of automation.


Yeah sorry, this is just a fundamental lack of understanding of the concept. It's not just some smart algorithm taking your customer care job, it's everything from self-driving lorries taking over the logistics industry to automated factories eliminating 90% of manufacturing jobs.

Here's a (frankly moderately sugar-coated) World Economic Forum report - http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Future_of_Jobs.pdf

Here's a summarised McKinsey report - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42170100 (to put it in perspective - In the US alone, 39 to 73 million jobs may be eliminated by 2030, but about 20 million of those displaced workers may be able to easily transfer to other industries)

Sure, you can dismiss the figures and projections. A lot of them are fairly poorly aimed shots in the dark, but the reality is going to be widespread job losses and a significant need to restructure economies. I think there's a good chance that government response to automation will probably be the second most defining issue of our time, after tackling climate change. Obviously assuming none of us start a nuclear war in the meantime.


Return to “Player's Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests