One Year of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Enok
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Enok » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:18 pm

Mronz wrote:If your job is taken over by technology, blame cries for constant wage or benefit hikes, leading to it being more cost effective to invest in tech, not you as a person to perform the same task.
Next step, learn a different trade or skill that again will lead to you being marketable in the workforce, don't just expect someone else to feed you, house you, and also give you money too.


I also just had to comment on this real quick. Especially coming from a Trump voter.

Refreshingly healthy perspective. This is what Trump ran on in the rust belt, yes? Not protecting obsolete jobs and trying to resist technical innovation? You know, coal vs solar?

Benito
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Benito » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:03 pm

For Mronz: I posted this article last month when it come out, but it's worth reading if you think that work is a solution to poverty. It's not--and never has been.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/maga ... eless.html

Mronz
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Mronz » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:23 pm

Benito wrote:For Mronz: I posted this article last month when it come out, but it's worth reading if you think that work is a solution to poverty. It's not--and never has been.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/maga ... eless.html


I'm sure I'm just an asshole... but I did read the article.
It was about a person's who's father was a crack addict, and tax payers paid him unemployment half the year,
A home health nurse, named Venessa, who apparently has three kids, the article fails to explain why she has three kids, widow, devorced, unmarried, no data.
But yes, it is an emotional story about someone who can't afford to pay rent, that fails to explain why she is in the situation she is in, was it big bad businesses fault, or perhaps her own, I don't know.

It talked about how 40,000,000 americans earn under $12 per hour, and don't have employer health insurance... I'm not seeing the point, why is this even mentioned? The article makes it sound like we need to pay the lowest class of workers a lot of money, simply because, it is... right?

I just do not feel the solution to help people is
1. the government must help everyone
or
2. Because you are successful, and worked your ass off, and you're worth millions, you now must give us that money, so we can give it to those who did not become successful.

Benito
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Benito » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:42 pm

Mronz wrote:It talked about how 40,000,000 americans earn under $12 per hour, and don't have employer health insurance... I'm not seeing the point, why is this even mentioned? The article makes it sound like we need to pay the lowest class of workers a lot of money, simply because, it is... right?

The point of the article is that it's not about hard work or working your ass off--you can do those things and still not have enough to get by. Some people work their ass off and they're rich, others work they're ass off and they're poor, and it has a lot more to do with starting conditions than it has to do with how you spend your money, or what choices you make. It's not about giving people a lot of money, it's about compensating people fairly and adequately for their work so that they have enough.

It's easy to find reasons to blame an individual for not making it. It becomes a lot more difficult when that person is in a situation similar to millions and millions of other people.

The story of the last four or five decades is that the real value of wages has plummeted while productivity has increased. In other words, we're producing more value than our parents did and receiving less pay for it.

Arkan
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Arkan » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:54 pm

People do things they wouldn't do when desperate. Otherwise good people will murder you for your wallet. Even worse, poverty tends to be generational as most of these "hard working millionaires" got that way due to significant help from their parents. I feel soooo sorry for millionaires bitching about taxes. Poor babies. Hah!
Besides, sure tax money helps the poor, but it helps the wealthy even more. Government services like infrastructure, policing, and a robust foreign policy allows business leaders to take in millions while the poor get that lovely no-healthcare minimum wage job. Yay.

Naomi
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:34 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Naomi » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Reyne wrote:Instead, a capitalist at the top decides completely un-democratically what is to be done with the profit of everyone's collective labor which of course is always to their own benefit and to the detriment of the workers.


I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Are you suggesting that employees should have a voice where the owner of a company decides his assets/profits should go?

Reyne
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Reyne » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:30 pm

Naomi wrote:Are you suggesting that employees should have a voice where the owner of a company decides his assets/profits should go?


Sure. The profits come from their labor so why shouldn't they get a voice in deciding what is done with it? Any assets the owner brought to the table to begin with, the only thing they actually contribute to the production process, is just the profit taken from work someone else did previously all the way back to violent seizure of assets dubbed "primitive accumulation." Without the work of the employees, literally nothing happens.

Say I can open a factory to build chairs. Each chair costs me $100 in parts/materials/rent to produce, and I can sell them for $200/ea. Obviously I need workers to work in my factory and process the lumber/nails/glue into chairs. The work that they do then creates that $100 in profit. I give them some small portion of that and keep the rest. I've basically done nothing but contributed the initial capital to fund the production, and we always ignore the question of well how did I get that initial capital in the first place since I didn't just create wealth from nowhere. It only matters that I have it and that the workers don't. They have no say in what I spend the profits on, they have no say if I decide to lay everyone off and open a factory overseas so I can save a bit on labor costs, they have no say if I want to adopt a technology that causes tons of pollution in the community. Their only choice is to quit and try and find another job which will have identical conditions. No one is *ever* paid "what they are worth" because the condition of their employment is that their work will produce more than they are paid.

If my business goes bankrupt, that's too bad but odds are I'm doing alright. At the very least it is a huge tax write off as a business loss. I was probably not living paycheck to paycheck in the first place. My workers are bearing the risk of going hungry/homeless based on my decisions. You can see this clearly with the recent Toys R Us bankruptcy and the Sears bankruptcy. Golden parachutes for the executives and the employees barely given notice at all, if any, that they need to look for other work. In the case of Toys R Us, venture capitalist firms (one of which is Mitt Romney's) aquired it, ran its debts up massively for no real good reason other than to collect money themselves, then peaced out as it collapsed under the massive interest payments. Sears was more simply mismanaged like crazy although there was plenty of looting going on there too (CEO selling its assets off for cheap to a real estate trust he was the primary shareholder of haha!!!) - more jobs lost, more pensions gone.

Worker coops are structured more democratically. Mondragon Corporation in Spain is a pretty good example although not without its issues.

I'm also talking very broadly, obviously. This is more applicable to large corporations versus some tiny corner mom and pop shop (which are basically all but eliminated these days anyway, but that's another topic).

Reyne
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Reyne » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:53 pm

Dictatorship of the Rig also has its merits.

Benito
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Benito » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:28 pm

Just adding to what Reyne said, companies are best run when they're run for the benefit of their employees rather than for the benefit of shareholders. A lot of the disasters of capitalism come from valuing short-term profits over long-term profits. When you run a company for the workers, you have to care about it making money and remaining competitive over a long period of time, and you're valuing those who have the most at stake in the company doing well.

I'm just paraphrasing a chapter out of Ha-Joon Chang's book, 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism. Really good, short, and accessible chapters.

Naomi
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:34 pm

Re: One Year of Trump

Postby Naomi » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:19 pm

Reyne wrote:
Naomi wrote:I'm also talking very broadly, obviously. This is more applicable to large corporations versus some tiny corner mom and pop shop (which are basically all but eliminated these days anyway, but that's another topic).


I was beginning to feel insulted, as a business owner who did not participated in "primitive accumulation" and who actively contributes to my business, until I got down to this point.

I will say that in 2008, the US Census identified a total of 27,281,452 businesses in the United States. The majority of those were operated by proprietors with no employees numbering in at 21,351,320. If you add onto that companies that have fewer than 500 employees, you get to around 27,262,983.

This leaves you with 18,586 businesses with over 500 employees. Small business amounts to approximately 99% of businesses in the United States.

Here's a bit more recent data: https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files ... %20web.pdf

There's a lot I disagree with in what you said, and I feel a lot of it is very subjective - though this may in part be due to the fact that you admittedly painted things with a very broad stroke of a brush.


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