Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Baal
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:20 pm

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Baal » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:30 pm

Raeza wrote:I have only been playing this game actively for about a year and a half. (I also played for about a couple of months about 10 years ago, but not in the interim). I have no master characters. So, I am not going to comment on the nuances of PK balance.

But, Treach (and Mhaliah earlier) noted some points that resonate with me. As a newer player, there are two aspects of this conversation that sadden me a bit: (1) the suggestion that not having master bonuses makes the game boring and causes the reduction in the player base, and (2) the suggestion that PK is the only worthwhile activity in this mud.


(1) It's not the lack of master bonuses that make the game boring, it's the result.
(2) As someone who does everything on this game (smob, RP, explore, craft...you name it, I've done it.) - I can tell you that this game is still a PK mud and the very lifeblood of it is PK. Without PK the rest dies. Even RP these days - I've been spending all my playtime lately wandering around trying to find someone to RP with - you're literally the only person who has bothered to respond to more than a few sentences.

Raeza wrote:For one, it really boggles me when people argue that losing master mob lead (or making experienced player bonuses weaker more generally) is what is leading to the loss of player numbers. It seems so out of touch to me. Basically, it comes down to saying if you don't have these bonuses, the game is not worth playing. If you can't be motived to play your master with all of the bonuses they still have, what motivation do those of us who have no masters have to play at all?


Again, mobs do add a dynamic that I very much enjoy, but it goes beyond being bored. As you say, this game has a very steep learning curve.

Spyder wrote:Please don't get me wrong i think there should be some adjustments to the way master mobs work,especially in terms of them being able to bash and wear a full abs kit etc. However as it stands, not being able to push back outnumbered vs opponents who.

A. Do not understand they hold the ascedancy in pk, so they play cautiously when they do not need to.


This explains it perfectly - often you're sitting in a position where your opponent has an overwhelming upper hand and when you hit you're literally guaranteeing that yourself or someone that you're leading is going to die, 100%. Risk is good, and makes pk fun, but risk that has absolutely no reward is pointless. Experienced pkers (masters) can use mobs to keep this type of stalemate pk flowing.

Raeza wrote:I do understand the argument that mob lead allows you to do something when you log on and there is literally no one else -- to play solo. But, it seems to me that this just speaks even more to the need to bring in and maintain new players.


It's not that they allow you to play solo. I can play solo all day long and get everything I need without a mob. It's that they allow you to form a small group. It's hard to maintain new players if they're playing a game where nothing is happening.

Raeza wrote:As a newer player compared to most, I can tell you from recent experience that the learning curve in this game is ENORMOUS! I think the imms and the player base has done a good job of making the game more newbie-friendly in the earlier components of the game: learning the game mechanics, levelling, getting equipment, etc. There are quests and more information is available. People are very helpful over chats and such. (The wiki has helped so much with this as well.) But, the endgame aspect of the game -- mainly PK -- is still VERY newbie unfriendly.


You're right, it is enormous. It's difficult to be friendly in PK when the point of it is killing someone, which is why we recommend the practice which is so difficult to obtain at the present moment. Most new pkers start on LS which leads to the stalemate situations explained above which can be alleviated by the presence of master mobs. DS is and always has been a PK oriented side and if it's active, the leaders there are pretty good about making sure that the people who die have more eq - provided they have the numbers to even do so.

Raeza wrote:-- When other people die, they pull one of their many stored sets out of rent, take some of their massive stores of gold to h/h their weapon and buy a warhorse, and keep going. When you are a newbie, you have nothing and losing your set means you cannot PK again until you can gather up another halfway decent set, which could take hours.


While this may be true for some people, for many it isn't. There are lots of guides around on the forums that you can read to tell you where you can get eq. You don't need a top end perfect set to jump headfirst in PK, especially as a beginner where you are just trying to learn. Every death brings understanding. I had days where I would die 8 times and run back out in the first thing I could find - then I would look at logs and try to identify mistakes. Even better, we're human, which means we can do this thing called learning vicariously. There are hundreds of logs to read through.

Yes, there are assholes. No, it isn't easy. Challenge is what makes this game fun.

Raeza wrote:-- When other people need equipment, they ask their friends to go smobbing (or they go solo smobbing if they are uber enough). When you are a newbie, you know no one. If you are lucky enough to get brought along smobbing (because you are not as quick as others at knowing what to do), then some people tend to give you basic pieces and keep the better pieces for themselves. As a newbie, it is difficult to know the norms of gear distribution, or to work up the nerve to ask for something because you are happy to just be able to come along.


See my previous comment about master mobs and forming smob groups.

Raeza wrote:-- Even when you do start getting a bit better, a majority of people that you face are masters with tons of bonuses. So, the most experienced players in the game also have a slew of bonuses (extra damage, extra ob/pb, amazing stats due to years of rerolls, previously mob lead, not to mention fade/gaidin bonuses). So, even when you feel that your skills are starting to improve a bit, you still die...all...the...time.


Usually they don't like to make a big deal about dying, but if you watch narrates you'll see that all the bonused characters still die...all...the...time. That's the point of PK - if players weren't dying it wouldn't be fun.

Raeza wrote:What does it matter if people get some qps from smobbing, or any other activity? If people get master that way, then fine. It seems that most everyone already has a master anyway. We live in a mud where masters are the norm, not the exception. If someone is not much of a PKer, then they aren't going to use their new master bonuses to kill you anyway, so what is the problem? Is it just pride? Exclusiveness? If that helps a newer player get a master more quickly to even the odds, then so what?


Wotmud has a lot of things to do, like you mentioned; but the entire balance of the game was built around PK, which is why the rewards from it need to remain the main incentive.

Exploration: Sure this is fun, the first time you do it. Once you've seen everything, the only things left to explore are things brought in by imms, who kindly volunteer their time, so they can't treat this as a full time job.
Smobbing: Most people smob for a reason - to eq naked alts. Sure, there are the grinders, who get satisfaction from completing the same monotonous task over and over, but that isn't the majority of people. Yeah, smobbing can be a fun way to socialize - but all day every day? PK provides variety.
RP: While this isn't directly tied to PK, it's not everyone's cup of tea (in fact, very few). It makes the game immersive and awesome, but it doesn't keep the numbers up.
Crafting: Again, what's the point of making stuff if you don't need to?
Questing: Also fun - until the quest is completed.
Mercantile: Can't sell things if you don't have naked people to buy them.

Raeza wrote:It is difficult for newer players to just PK constantly due to reasons mentioned above. Personally, I still find PK do be somewhat stressful because it is not second nature to me yet, and I feel like I really have to be mentally tuned-in to do a good job. Maybe this changes if you play so long that PK just becomes second nature, but I cannot just PK all day nonstop. I have to have some down time, and I could either just log off, or I could do some other things on the mud like RP and smob. Attacking the other activities on the mud that people like to do, or making it such that there is zero incentive to do them, does not make PK better. It will just drive people away who might want to PK sometimes, but not all the time.


It's normal to want downtime from failure, but don't let it get you down. Even the most experienced players make errors in judgement. This is what makes PK fun - outmaneuvering your opponent. It's just hard to do when you're still learning the nuances. It isn't that most PKers hate the other activities on the mud - they understand that they're part of what makes this game unique. It's just that they can see the various ways in which PK is being damaged and that makes them lash out. Not an excuse!

tl;dr - Experienced players understand the nuances of pk - master mobs aren't the be all end all but they can be used to be the straw that makes impossible stalemates possible without having to rewrite every zone.

Razhak
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:43 am

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Razhak » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:43 pm

Very good points by Baal.

I would even dare to say that for newbie PKers who want to learn to PK, starting on DS might even be preferred. You have less worry about getting sidetracked with horsemoves, lights, etc. And if you start on an abser (which ALL newbie pkers imo should do..), then getting re-eq is insanely simple on DS.

DS is also alot less unfriendly then people Always assume in my opinion. Most people go out of their way to help DS-newbies if they show a good attitude :)

Rig
Posts: 1438
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: JESUS

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Rig » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:59 pm

You know, Raeza, I see what you're getting at when it comes to newbies pking. I was that newbie not too long ago.

I started the game on a 18 11 11 17 19 warrior, spent like a day statting it. Leveling up etc, I'm talking to some guys and they're explaining clans to me. I was curious about Red Eagles, so I set out to make that a goal of getting clanned there.

Joining that clan during that period of time was more helpful to me for pk than anyone else has ever been. They told me to clan I needed 3 dark side scalps, 3 seanchan side scalps, and a fellow red eagle scalp. These dickheads would same side me all gd day and I'd get so close to killing them it would make me fuming.

During all of this Kirtha/Isktamost/Terinor/Achillies/Ibaka and Aquila (he's civil watch not eagle lmao) taught me how to dline, how to quite literally die and learn from it, and generally how to have fun and do goofy shit. Best learning experience ever.

That's the first thing I do now when see a newb on ds who wants to learn how to pk. I teach them to dline, and explain to them gear is just gear and it gets back to you one way or another either way. Then, after a few weeks or so and they're still around I'll go over zone knowledge and teach them rooms, spams, dlines from those rooms, and where there mobs to use and places to hide if you're in trouble.

So now, talking about newbs in pk. The learning curve is there, for sure. My question is however:
HAS ANYONE TAKEN THE TIME TO DO ANY OF THE ABOVE for you and try to help you get better? I know that on LS, Red Eagles was the last I ever saw of anyone trying to help newbs learn to pk. Instead it's still everyman for himself and dying basically means you're shit out of luck when it comes to almost everything.

So when you're whining about a learning curve, just remember you can teach that newbie knowledge that's more valuable than gold on how to survive and pk, and they'll remember and think on this when they die.

Edit: Side shout out to Zangief/Jaster/Spyder/Tempest and others that I haven't mentioned for also helping me learn to pk!

Terinor
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:19 pm

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Terinor » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:26 pm

If this makes me partially responsible for how rig is today I am sorry.

Landon
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:27 pm

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Landon » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:43 pm

Regarding old master mob lead in pk, yes, there were the Mobrinos and Mobtzaos, but they weren't that huge of a deal, often loaded well, and got targeted first. The problem was fades getting to lead so many different mobs and the availability of leadable mobs in pk zones (both ds and bgs) which meant there was 0 cost to using them. That's it. Simply making master mobs only issueable at your clan base or a reasonable outpost (maybe Rhahime for DS and the outpost near cut for southern LS clans) would have solved that.

As for smobbing, it makes sense. I would have rather them just change the random anti-mob mobol to permanent anti-mob mobol on the best smobs. I used to solo smob a ton on Landon, because it gave me something to do in between PK and was a new challenge. Maybe things have changed, but really, there should be smobs, hard smobs, and "raid lairs". I liked how they changed basics to be easy to get, so there's less prep time to the game. Smobs load basics. Hard smobs are tuned to 3-4 people and give less rewards if only hit with 1-2 people. Raid lairs would be similar to Fort/Justice/Malf and give you those rare rewards while having puzzle type mechanics.

Spyder wrote:There was once a level of thrill associated with playing this game, that perhaps because of the dwindling populace is gone? I think though it is more to do with the consistently slow imperceptible change in this going from a no safe places mud to a social mud.


That's because you learned the game, not because we turned the mud into a safe space. I used to get a thrill from hunting enormous snow leopards north of ED and trying to kill Lopars northwest of Kirendad. Now, I could go zerk on horned lizards east of Chachin and if some ds walked in and killed me or I mob, oh well. I used to get a thrill from trying to kill Nialoshi with a full smob group. Now, smobbing isn't difficult. We know the mechanics, group sizes needed, and to check for hiddens while resting if we can't clear in one go.

PK used to give me the shakes, because there was so much on the line. Now, we pretty much know how any one person will play a situation. It's not a surprise or thrill, just a matter of execution. It's still fun, but not a "thrill". The same goes for every online game that I've ever played.

Raeza
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:21 am

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Raeza » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:16 pm

Thanks for the comments. I fear that my post was taken as a personal 'whine' but actually I was just trying to share a newbie perspective from someone who was in that position more recently than probably most other people here. These days, I don't have much problem at all re-equipping a basic set or having enough gold for things, and I don't really care about dying. Gear comes and goes as people say; no big deal. It took a while to reach this position though because there was a time when gear did not come and go (it seemed to just go...) and when I would spend hours coming up with a kit only to die within minutes of encountering the opposing side, every time. (This is what I meant by die all...the...time. Everyone dies regularly -- you win some, you lose some -- but that is different than dying in minutes every time you go out and not being able to stick around long enough to really enjoy the experience before dying, much less winning from time to time.)

Anyway -- that is a bit of a tangent -- but my main point actually just comes down to what Rig said.

Rig wrote:That's the first thing I do now when see a newb on ds who wants to learn how to pk. I teach them to dline, and explain to them gear is just gear and it gets back to you one way or another either way. Then, after a few weeks or so and they're still around I'll go over zone knowledge and teach them rooms, spams, dlines from those rooms, and where there mobs to use and places to hide if you're in trouble.

So now, talking about newbs in pk. The learning curve is there, for sure. My question is however:
HAS ANYONE TAKEN THE TIME TO DO ANY OF THE ABOVE for you and try to help you get better? I know that on LS, Red Eagles was the last I ever saw of anyone trying to help newbs learn to pk. Instead it's still everyman for himself and dying basically means you're shit out of luck when it comes to almost everything.

So when you're whining about a learning curve, just remember you can teach that newbie knowledge that's more valuable than gold on how to survive and pk, and they'll remember and think on this when they die.


Not sure if the last bit was aimed at me or others, but I agree that if you are really committed to improving PK and PK numbers, taking a newer player (or even an older player who would like to improve) under your wing and helping them out -- not just throwing them a piece of gear but really working with them and teaching them about the ins-and-outs of PK -- could pay dividends.

To answer your question, yes, some people helped me out with those things here and there along the way, but I wouldn't say that this help was always easy to find.

Razhak wrote:I would even dare to say that for newbie PKers who want to learn to PK, starting on DS might even be preferred. You have less worry about getting sidetracked with horsemoves, lights, etc. And if you start on an abser (which ALL newbie pkers imo should do..), then getting re-eq is insanely simple on DS.


I agree completely! I spent some time playing on DS for precisely this reason (to improve in PK) and found it more helpful than LS for this particular purpose -- easy to reequip abs after dying, close proximity to PK areas, less to worry about (lights, horses as you said). I would recommend that to others as well.

Baal wrote:Wotmud has a lot of things to do, like you mentioned; but the entire balance of the game was built around PK, which is why the rewards from it need to remain the main incentive.


This sounds nice, but I don't understand it. Shouldn't the main incentive for PKing be that it is fun? Would people who like PKing really just stop PKing if they didn't have master bonuses to motivate them? Aren't there plenty of other incentives? Gear, the thrill of victory, the recognition...?

Baal wrote:Even RP these days - I've been spending all my playtime lately wandering around trying to find someone to RP with - you're literally the only person who has bothered to respond to more than a few sentences.


Perhaps we need a better way for people who are looking for or are open to RP to identify themselves. Maybe I'll start putting a note in my title when I'm in the mood for a bit of RP. I bet there are other people than just me.

Anyway, if master mob lead makes PK better, then yay master mobs! I understand the arguments about adding options for the underdog side and whatnot. I just hope they would be (re-)implemented in a way that helps promote PK that is fun for all, and not a way for already powerful characters to further steamroll others or protect themselves from risk. Sorry (not sorry) for being a smurf. It sounds like other people share the opinion that re-implementation, but with some changes, would be more appropriate than putting them back just as they were.

Rig
Posts: 1438
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: JESUS

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Rig » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:37 pm

Yea it's not geared toward any one person specifically.

I'd like to see more people doing this instead. You can only get better if you try, it's not a one way street to become as good as the Jasters and Kyrs of the mud.

Kyr
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:09 pm

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Kyr » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:10 pm

1) I'm in my own tier.
2) If there were others in my tier, it wouldn't be Jaster...

Barber, you may proceed.

isabel
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:19 am

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby isabel » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:20 pm

Thoughts from someone even better

Lykan wrote:I've run countless pk classes, tournaments, and events across alts and lots of us often take time and spend 30 minutes (that we really don't have) or however long just going over basic stuff like bash timing or dlining/zone tactics with people. I just think if everyone was more personally proactive rather than sitting around here talking about what other people should do to enhance the game, it would be a good start.


viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2075&p=18899

and

Lykan wrote:Its really pretty sad when you sit back and recognize the fact that if you have one half-decent leader on each side, you can virtually always generate decent back-and-forth pk. Yet 90% of pk sessions up north now are utterly ridiculous, consisting mainly of healthy fades with equal or superior groups hiding at patties or just going in, or LS tower groups running around and sniping people then running FD to talk about how scared DS is. In the end, it's probably our fault for not trying to make the newer age of leaders less-bad than they are, rather than just making fun of how terrible they are. In group pk, it always comes back to what the leader does; wotmud mostly stopped generating decent leaders 10 yrs ago.


viewtopic.php?f=74&t=5891&p=45374#p45374
Last edited by isabel on Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Lykan
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: Master Mob Lead (Way beyond 30 days) #SetThemFREE

Postby Lykan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:27 pm

Im definitely looking you up when I run for senate.


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