Combat skills formulas

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Dimmu
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:38 am

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Dimmu » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:50 am

An interesting take for me is, if you're a Troll vs a mounted basher(worse if a master), the horse really needs to die. Which of course yields it's own unliked outcomes.

stark
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby stark » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:42 am

Fermin wrote:Would be great if someone would roll 100 bashes or so, because I don’t think this is close to accurate...I think more likely is there is something we don’t know. Could be a lot of factors including maybe we dodgers remember the bashes more then the dodges...


Keep in mind though that the stats portion (ob / weight / pb vs db) is capped at 30%. At a certain point it no longer helps to keep adding ob and weight. If you add clubs & ride, you get another 14% on top of that, but that's pretty much it. To get to greater percentages, BMI has to come into play and it does not for player vs player.

Maybe Vampa one day can snoop players bashing each other with known stats so we can be extra sure about all this, he can see the probability as players attempt the bashes so he could validate the numbers pretty easily. But it feels pretty right to me...

Zarth
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:04 pm

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Zarth » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:28 pm


ecthus
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:11 pm

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby ecthus » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:45 pm

Dimmu wrote:An interesting take for me is, if you're a Troll vs a mounted basher(worse if a master), the horse really needs to die. Which of course yields it's own unliked outcomes.

This is like saying that the best way to kill trollocs is to slow and contagion them. Killing horses, except in a minority of situations, remains a great way to end PK without getting kills.

Follow-up question. Is the PB in the calculation the same PB we see when we hit stat? For instance, if I have PB from my weapon but it drops to 0 after wearing a full abs set, which value is taken?

Another thing missing seems to be the weapon condition (scratched, blunt, etc). Bashing definitely gets worse when the weapon scratches, but it's not reflected in changes in stats we can see.

Taziar
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Taziar » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:54 pm

I never checked, but does OB change when scratched/blunt etc?

stark
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby stark » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:56 am

ecthus wrote:Follow-up question. Is the PB in the calculation the same PB we see when we hit stat? For instance, if I have PB from my weapon but it drops to 0 after wearing a full abs set, which value is taken?

Another thing missing seems to be the weapon condition (scratched, blunt, etc). Bashing definitely gets worse when the weapon scratches, but it's not reflected in changes in stats we can see.


The PB is your character's pb as displayed on stats. The difference is noticeable in the code because when it looks at weight, it looks specifically at the wielded item's weight. If it looked at your pb added from items, it would have to cycle through equipment and it does not.

In terms of weapon condition / wether it's scratched, there isn't a single reference to that in the bash code, and at least in terms of condition, I know what it would look like because the kick code does take it into account (for boots). Now it's possible that it gets applied in some function after the probability calculation that I haven't seen but I doubt it. I think it's one of those things like whether or not you're in a clan (aside from master ob considerations) that was believed for a long time to matter but actually does not. Unless of course, as Taziar mentioned, it reduces ob?

Fermin
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:16 pm

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Fermin » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:56 am

I've been trying to come up with a reply to this in regards to dodge, because I still feel like it isn't that good...

But the numbers keep proving me otherwise, I kind of think the reality is the "armor" weave bungles everything up...out of curiosity is it coding to change the armor weave to effect parry or abs?

Skadi
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:10 pm

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Skadi » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:01 pm

@Stark - is there any integer truncation within a step - that is, are 16/5 and 18/5 considered the same within a calculation (both becoming 3) or are they 3.2 and 3.6 respectively?

@Fermin 10 DB is pretty huge at the top end, but honestly I think master/zerk is really underlooked. For an 18 lb weapon, +10 OB is (18/5) * (10/3) = +12% bash chance. That's a TON when a nonmaster has something like 10% chance otherwise vs 150 db. Zerk offensive and the numbers get even sillier.

Oddly enough, not hugely a fan of dodge as a nonmaster abser either, because virtually nothing non-rare has a decent chance of bashing top end dodge. Gotta be a master or zerk..

Reyne
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Reyne » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:41 pm

Nervously dipping my toe into a conversation that significantly more experienced people are having but...

The armor weave seems to be one of the only things that make anything less than excellent dodge set ups even remotely viable.

Assuming Stark's tool is correct (which I am), dodge gets seriously diminished returns against clubs past ~135 DB due to the clubs bonus always giving at least 9% chance to bash. Thus it seems to me that armor is most useful for people with 17/18 dex or with some gaps in gear. If you already have 140 DB then going to 150 DB isn't effectively going to change that much as far as bash % is concerned, outside of cases where you're fighting mounted master fades. Adding 10 to 110 DB or 120 DB yields double digit reductions in bash %

Using an on foot 19 str hcombo with s'redit prod (17 lbs) numbers to test (based on the numbers the equipment trainer spits out for "good" hcombo, so we're at about 140 OB and 50 PB): against 135 DB this is a 9% minimum chance to bash (further DB doesn't reduce the bash %). For the sake of comparison, with the riding bonus it is a 13% chance to bash and is back to 9% at 138 db. Using 21 str and everything else the same, you get 15% bash against 140DB and back to 9% against 144 DB.

Here's why I think dodge isn't that great though outside of specific contexts:

a) You need 19 dex and decent gear to really be viable. A "good" dodge set (with grings, sids, rrobe, and cbelt) at 99 dodge with armor weave gets you less than 150 DB at 18 dex. Don't rely on not being noticed and pumping out damage while DS is bashing your abs - they are good and won't fall for that most of the time. Less than 140 DB and you have a death wish which means 17 dex or less is just right out.

I'm not sure if there is any other set up that is this "either it is great or it will get you killed immediately" which makes it highly dependent on getting decent gear. Even if it is easier to get that gear than it has been in the past (based on what people tell me), it is still a pain in the butt. I'm definitely not burning QPs to issue grings and cbelts only to get wrecked in a few minutes. If I run full dodge on Reyne, I think I get crit in about 2-3 rounds once bashed which doesn't take too long to happen. With a quick fairly easy to get PB/l.combo set up I last much longer - I still get bashed but PB isn't nearly as penalized when sitting. And if I die, not a big deal. Buy a walking staff, get an etched. The PB trinkets are significantly easier to get than the DB ones; I can solo up a set in an hour or less probably. With a basher character I can throw on 2 pieces of abs grab a mediocre club and be somewhat useful even if only to soak some damage and aggro up while the heavier hitters do their thing - and if I die so what I lost a club and a couple pieces of mail.

b) Even with 19 dex with decent gear you're still standing a really good chance of getting bashed once there is more than one opponent, making the fact that dodge doesn't split the defensive bonus not as great as it seems. Even at very low ~10% odds of getting bashed, you're bound to eat at least a couple when multiple people are running bashes (which they likely will) and you can't afford to soak nearly as much damage given the nearly 0% abs if you're cranking the DB. As Aishana said you're quickly going to die when there are 2 people bashing on you.

If you have 19 dex *and* you have decent gear *and* you're not getting multiple bashes run on you consistently, then dodge is pretty great. In most other contexts you will fairly quickly eat a couple bashes and get your hps obliterated. At 17 dex with not a ton of health, dodge in PvP is pointless. I get killed before I even know what happened. It's also great for PvE, especially with a group.

Skadi wrote:honestly I think master/zerk is really underlooked.


I agree. Half the people in PK are masters and I didn't add any OB for zerk into the numbers I ran.

Long post geez. At least I'm at work >.>

That all said I don't really think dodge is particularly in a bad place because it is great for 1v1 and high risk/reward seems to be the purpose of the rogue class. Dunno how you'd make it 'better' without having to mess with a bunch of other things as well and as it is now a rogue in decent dodge with a plan to succeed can mess up someone's day quite a bit!
Last edited by Reyne on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:00 pm, edited 13 times in total.

Melayna
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 10:07 am

Re: Combat skills formulas

Postby Melayna » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:42 pm

Fermin wrote:Can someone confirm that the +5 ob that trollocs get to compensate for being dismounted carries over to fade?

Based on the numbers it looks less terrible, but in reality it feels much worse. Maybe its the fact that a bash is like death a decent amount of the time in dodge...


Doesn't from memory, fades have the same base ob as their human counter parts iirc. Personally find dodge to be great, lot of factors go into it, and it means you have to think during PK.


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