Two Years of Trump

... sit down, kick back and relax, and talk about anything that doesn't belong on one of the other forums.
Benito
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Benito » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:38 pm

Jaster wrote: I want actual news. Not the opinion of some political hacks. And if you give me rubbish that media outlets in todays era have no agenda you are full of shit and are biased yourself. The bias and politicizing the media conveys today is ludicrous.

I'm not sure bias is the right standard for news. For me, bias is less relevant than whether the reporting is accurate and how it relates to general or historical patterns. The success of conservative media is largely its ability to make idiosyncratic anecdotes stand in for a larger pattern that doesn't actually exist. For instance, gun owners defending themselves from intruders, or illegal immigrants raping white women, or fabricated data in academic publications, which are then used to stand in for non-existent patterns of guns for self defense, criminal and violent immigrants, and corrupt production of knowledge. Me getting a better tax return doesn't change the failed experiment of trickle-down economics over the last forty years and the steady decline of wages through that period.

I think before the edit, you said that the media in general has a liberal bias. That seems true to me, but I think that conservatives haven't taken the important next step of trying to explain where that bias comes from and why it exists. Better said, I think most people don't have a functional way of distinguishing bias from expertise. The trouble is that complete ignorance and expert knowledge can appear very similar. We're most dogmatic when we know nothing about something and when we've studied it completely, but the grounds for that dogmatism are going to be different.

Summed up: bias is often pointed to as a substitute for the work of demonstrating that reporting is accurate or inaccurate, and on what grounds, which to me is the more important and interesting standard.

Jestin
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Jestin » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:58 pm

Benito wrote:Better said, I think most people don't have a functional way of distinguishing bias from expertise. The trouble is that complete ignorance and expert knowledge can appear very similar. We're most dogmatic when we know nothing about something and when we've studied it completely, but the grounds for that dogmatism are going to be different.


I think this is very insightful and really summarizes our main problem nowadays. I consider myself pretty (probably over) educated. However in fields outside of my own I have no way of establishing an evidence based opinion because to do so I would have to trust somebody and I have no idea who I should trust. When experts in the field literally say completely opposite things, which becomes more common place in soft fields, how am I supposed to know who to believe?

One thing I would disagree with is the "we become most dogmatic when we've studied something completely". Totally agree that people, including myself, can be very dogmatic when we know a little bit about something but haven't taken the time to understand all the subtleties that accompany most issues. From my experience, however, real experts in complex fields are only humbled the more they learn and are even less likely to become dogmatic, especially when it comes to taking broad sweeping general positions that ignore all the subtlety of an issue. Usually when experts are very dogmatic it's not necessarily because they believe what they are saying, but because they either believe that being dogmatic is the lesser evil (its okay to be incorrect somtimes as long as the net effect is positive) or they are being influenced by external factors (funding, personal biases, etc).

Reyne
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Reyne » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:28 pm

I think it's a problem that in an effort to appear unbiased news shows will often put someone knowledgeable up against just whoever disagrees. Then we get stuff like a respected climate scientist arguing against someone who just digs their heels in and says "this is all make believe" and it is presented as if these are two equally informed opinions when they are not at all.

That seems true to me, but I think that conservatives haven't taken the important next step of trying to explain where that bias comes from and why it exists.


I think media (especially in the US) has a corporate hegemony bias because they are all largely funded and owned by the same few conglomerates. How can I expect to get an unbiased report from experts in the field on issues that these conglomerates want to keep quiet on? Why would the individuals who sit on the boards of Chevron and NBC (pretty much all the same people btw) allow NBC to run stories that might make fossil fuels look bad?

Example:

A 2012 Media Matters study of oil think tanks impact on the public’s understanding of climate change concluded that the reason 66% of Americans incorrectly believe that scientists have no consensus on the causes of climate change results from the corporate media “distorting scientific research, hyping faux-scandals, and giving voice to groups funded by industries that have a financial interest in blocking action on climate change.”


2 in 3 Americans believe something which is breathtakingly wrong (there absolutely is a consensus on climate change) but of course they think that because many of the guest spots and and hosts on news shows are directly funded by groups friendly to the fossil fuel industry.

Another example:

Sinclair Broadcast Group is the largest owner of television stations in the United States, currently owning or operating a total of 193 outlets across the country in nearly 80 markets, ranging from markets as large as Washington, D.C. to as small as Steubenville, Ohio.

The stations are affiliates of various television networks, including ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox as well as numerous specialty channels.


Then they force all their stations (national to local) to read stories from the same script.

Back from 2004 so they have since gained more stations but for example stuff like:

Sinclair has ordered its 62 television stations to run the 40-minute film "Stolen Honor: Wounds That Never Heal," in which former U.S. prisoners of war criticize Kerry's role in the Vietnam-era antiwar movement.

Leiberman told CNN he had raised objections within the company to airing the film as a news program, and "just basically said, 'I don't want to be a part of it.'" He said he was warned not to go public with his objections and was canned when he did.


They're all the same. A handful of billionaires control all the news media outlets in the USA. Six corporations control 90% of media in the USA - not just news media, *all* media. Everything you watch, listen to, read. The Koch Brothers have their tendrils in everything. There's no ideological battle between "liberal" and "conservative" billionaires that own the media. There's just different flavors of the same product.

That's why I gotta go read some random nobody news source or tiny specialty journal (or RT ffs) to find out that the fracking industry dumped 3 billion gallons of fracking wastewater into California's drinking water and agriculture aquifers in 2014, or that American Petroleum together with the largest oil companies figured out they were negatively impacting the global environment back in the 1970s and covered it up like they did with leaded gasoline. It definitely gets 0 airtime on the mainstream media.

The USA is in the midst of investigating the largest price fixing cartel in US history and I hear basically nothing at all about it on the mainstream news. WaPo gave it some scant coverage in December in a couple online articles (would link but they are paywalled. Easy enough to search up, though).

An antitrust lawsuit that started two years ago and involved just two companies has expanded to include 16 companies and more than 300 generic drugs.

“This is most likely the largest cartel in the history of the United States,” Joseph Nielsen, an assistant attorney general and antitrust investigator in Connecticut who has been a leading force in the probe, said in an interview with The Washington Post, citing the volume of drugs in the schemes and the total number of companies and individuals involved.


This should be story #1. They are gouging prices on things like insulin!!! Asthma inhalers!!! Meanwhile we have people begging on Patreon for insulin money (that guy died) or rationing their supply while the federal gov't doesn't pay them. Also, in case you're less empathetic, that directly translates to higher costs and higher insurance premiums for everyone involved. It's money out of all our pockets.

But somehow the conversation, assuming there is one at all, on all the mainstream news channels ('liberal' to 'conservative') is all about how "well we pay more per capita here in the USA for healthcare with worse results because we foot all the R&D dontcha know!" Oh yeah definitely. That's definitely why we pay way more for a worse result. All that R&D. Just ignore that at least half of that is footed by the gov't in the first place but hey. Oh, most of your board also sits on the board of big pharma companies? Cool. Nothing weird there at all probably.

For me the problem then is that it takes the average person a lot of time and effort to wade through all the crap and check a dozen different sources and analyze the various perspectives and get a glean on what might actually be happening. People don't have the time for that, definitely not on every issue. Just trying to be an informed citizen is itself becoming a full time job.

e: there's my periodic effort post for this thread!!

Curtis
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:02 am

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Curtis » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:13 am

"The non-essential employees were sent home and told to wait it out, with a warning that it’s actually against the law for them to even log in to their work emails."

Where are all my shitposting buddies?

Maghus
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Maghus » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:36 am

q
Last edited by Maghus on Wed May 01, 2019 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

granit
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby granit » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 am

meanwhile, everyones throwing a fit right here and complaining about walls - did anyone notice that we're actually dabbling in Venezuela right now and about to kick out the old gov? mmhmm. Interesting!

micheal
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:03 pm

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby micheal » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am

Isn't that what the US does? Every US president has to have a "dabble" under his belt.

Reyne
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Reyne » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:17 am

granit wrote:meanwhile, everyones throwing a fit right here and complaining about walls - did anyone notice that we're actually dabbling in Venezuela right now and about to kick out the old gov? mmhmm. Interesting!


I noticed. :\

Curtis
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:02 am

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby Curtis » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:12 pm

Guess which reporters are out of jobs because their funding just ran out. Learn to code?

"Meanwhile, press freedom advocates are raising alarm over a little-known bill rolled into the NDAA, which will create a national anti-propaganda center. Under the Countering Disinformation and Propaganda Act, the State Department will actively work to “recognize, understand, expose, and counter foreign state and non-state propaganda and disinformation efforts aimed at undermining United States national security interests.”

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/12/27 ... nda_center

granit
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Two Years of Trump

Postby granit » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:59 pm

Reyne wrote:
granit wrote:meanwhile, everyones throwing a fit right here and complaining about walls - did anyone notice that we're actually dabbling in Venezuela right now and about to kick out the old gov? mmhmm. Interesting!


I noticed. :\


friends of mine I play futsal with on tuesdays and thursdays came in all worked up about it. Said they're going back home if they kick them out hehe. It's chaos right now. :(


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