Logging in to humans inside rk = p

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Razhak
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Razhak » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:18 am

I’ve written this in word, and will post it here. These are my personal opinions.

First I want to describe the current situation: atm there is the warsystem in which LS en DS can kill eachothers generals and earn points by doing so. Basically there is 1 point to be gotten by each hit, and the side with the most points will win that months session, after which they can change the weather in one of the northern zones.

Many, amongst them me myself, have argued that the system is inherently flawed and is biased towards LS. I will explain.

Firstly the locations of the generals. The DS general is located inside the ruined keep, and the LS general is located inside Tar Valon. The relative strengths of these cities is very much favoring a LS defender if DS hits Tar Valon. An intercept at any gate or any valon guard mob inside Tar Valon will trigger the callmob coding in there, making mobs swarm immediatly towards where the fight is happening. Also the generic valon guard mob is better equipped and higher level then the brunt of the wandering mobs in the ruined keep (remember alot of them are wolfish, hooved and beaked trollocs in there. Only the shops, GK and Blarg have standard higher level mobs with them). Lately a fade patty was added to the ruined keep, but this one still wanders and will be useless if it went to an out of place location, as it wont callmob.

Any smart LS defender in Tar Valon will not try to defend at the general, but instead block the 4 gates (gatedef) and intercept groups at callmobbing mobs. Most trollocs will get swamped by callmobbing valon guards, some might get out (if gates are open, or unblocked, most gates are unpickable though and there are no jump exits). Some fades might run into the Tower darkrooms and get a fade out (at the moment this is not possible, because in the latest revamp, darkrooms were removed and not yet re-added). Largest parts of DS groups should perish though against a dedicated LS defense, even if the attackers outnumber the defenders.

This will play different for defending DS in ruined keep. Not only is stonegate pickable, there are backexits through maze and there is a jump exit. Assuming the DS defending is outnumbered, they could intercept at gatekeep, basically the best defended room in ruined keep (apart from Blarg, but thats not on the way to the general), but even there the mobs are particularly weak and undereqqed (just check their eq vs generic LS guardmobs eq). No gatedefences will help you there, no mobs will callmob. Any attacking LS group can just methodically steamroll towards the DS general, clearing room by room without having to worry about callmobbing mobs or gatedefences.

Basically, if the DS defender is outnumbered, then once they lose the gatekeep, they can only harass and annoy, unless a DG or DL is positioned in a good place (if these are not locked someplace in the cells as has happened in the past by crossrace cheating players).

You can call me biased or say I suxors, like some have done in the past, but thats the bare bones truth of it. Put me on a tower clanned character inside Tar Valon against a DS group anytime, over being a DS clanned (with me myself being the only DS character to effectively stack some mobs in GK) in GK vs a LS group. I understand basically no single player should be able to defeat an opposing group… but a tower clanned character inside Tar Valon would basically be able to get a whole way with that.

Now tot he rewards, basically you get a zone change for smobbing. Call me contrite, but thats it. Those changes however make a big impact on PK: changing a zone to blighted, like we did with gap, severely hampers LS movement, and changing zones to certain weathertypes can massively help LS channies (fireweaves!!) be even more effective. This has been mentioned by others then me also.

This all gets made even more lopsided by the numbers game. I do not buy into the whole “we had this in the early 2000’s with Mesa camping outside Keep!” argument. That is just assinine. Offcourse I was there also: DS was shut down at times, but that was a different age: even at low times there were DS online enough to hold keep against those numbers (we had more DGs in keep also back then! They were partially removed a couple years back), but also the game was alot bigger: 120 people on high times, 20-30 on the lowest times. Both sides had more people, but especially the smaller side, being DS had more people relative to now.

There is a difference between 5-7 people on at the lowest times vs 0-2 as it is now. LS can basically farm the general when DS has 0-2 people online (I suggest checking the turn in/killing logs of the last 3 warsmobbing legs), and DS cannot do much against it. Also, DS cannot reciprocate and hit at these times, for the sole reason that hitting the general will require most of a full group, which is impossible at low number times for DS.

Even at the higher number times, when DS can gather a group, this means LS will be at higher numbers also. Then hitting at channie central, aka Tar Valon will mean that DS will almost always be up against superior numbers. Offcourse this worked in the first 2 legs, when most of LS was not yet fully up to speed to the whole cross race warsmobbing game, but nowadays not many hits will succeed.

What to do then? The worst solution in my opinion would be to throw worse fixes at bad problems. So do not go up Keep or down Tar Valon. Dont add channeling mobs to GK or add whatever (be it callmob, gatedefs, etc, etc) to all kinds of places.

The best solution in my opinion is to use the already in place TG point system. Reset the points and use the already working system of gaining TG points through PK. You can get TG points through 2 routes: through levels of DS/LS killed, and through which side killed the highest amount of TPS.

This is inherently fair, even in a lopsided numbers game: I will explain. Imagine 3 DS online vs 10 humans. Those 10 humans would in one session basically get 3x51 levels max + some few tps. However, the DS could in theory get 10x51 levels + some more tps. This means an outnumbered side can, with better players, still win the TG points/tps game, and the side that outnumbers, can not overwhelm the outnumbered side through sheer numbers in this same TG/tps game.

This is inherently more fair and will put the incentive of the cross race war back onto PK. But and this is a big but, hitting cityheads, CTF patties and big smobs who have tps added to them (think holiday smobs, special occasion smobs, global/clanquests ets) and the like could still be factored into this whole game if their tps flowed into the TG point TPS pool. This way half the TG points would only come out of playerkills, while the tps could be won if one side kills enough cityheads/CTFs etc etc. This way you could both involve the pkers and the smobbers in meaningfull ways. If you add a fair chunk of TPS to the generals, then killing these generals would make sense in winning TG points for the side.

Also I think you could roll the LS generals into fade requirements, like cityheads are now. Use the DS general in LS clanning/mastering quests and such so.

Once gotten, TG points could then be spent, according to the wishes of the side. Perhaps buy small changes for smaller amounts (like treasurer: buy some mobs/upgraded mob weapons, extra scouts) for a smaller amount, or buy large changes like weather changes for a large amount. This way TG points can be used in both smaller and bigger ways. If you use smaller rewards, you can hence often affect the flow of battle in many smaller ways, however if you opt for the larger rewards, you can only sporadically affect the flow of battle.

These are my 2 cents.

Jecks
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Jecks » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:49 am

This is above me, but I was under the impression that the War System was made to promote the concept of Player Killing, risk taking and ultimately be a challenging group activity with a high rate of back and forth.
Winning/losing:

We'll just do a plain score: the one with the most banners wins.

If LS wins, the joint Borderguards will select the victors' change, if DS wins the Chosen will select their victors' change. For speed, it might be prudent to talk about potential changes prior to win/loss being announced.

If any side wins with a difference greater than 200 banners, they can select two victors' changes, however, they will still cost Tarmon Gaidon points.
Since implementation, here are the greatest number of banner turn ins per side in a 2 month period :
DS 3.
LS 6.

The initial idea of there possibly being a "difference greater than 200 banners" is very far from the reality since it's implementation in November of 2018. But it gives me hope that the War System was meant to be something quick and available. Maybe even common, like the swapping of CTF's but on a grander scale.

I understand where you are coming from Razhak and your points are well made. I think our difference of opinions simply falls in how we feel the War System should be implemented/played.*

- I feel the General hits should be a high risk, high reward, desired and frequent, medium to large, group activity that is a bonus activity in relation to regular PK.

- You would like to see General hits as a rare event used for quests or a lesser means of attaining TPS and change the War System concept wherein it is simply tied to existing PK limitations.**

*the intricacies of different sides, different difficulties, can be discussed after it is decided what the War System is meant to be.

**please forgive me if I misinterpreted your last post.

As an aside, I can't think of much else to add or discuss until Immortals decide/announce how they want the War System to work. No point arguing over a potato when it's actually an apple. I'd be more than willing to help discuss and share ideas on making the difficulties "even" surrounding the War System from both sides should the opportunity arise.

iria
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:35 pm

Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by iria » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:54 am

Hrm does all the TV gates have the shitty emote damage? I've raided TV a fair bit and don't recall being hit by it. Tbh after they removed most(all?) channeling mobs from outer Tar Valon and put them into the Tower, TV seems to just be a slightly more buff Whitebridge, with nonlocking gates etc. Granted the northeastern one does somewhat screw over trollocs who go there since they have to cross water to get out of the zone - perhaps this could be changed?

I feel like your idea of TV is somewhat skewed. 5 years ago I'd agree, but these days I'd say it is easier to survive in TV than keep. Callmob can be an issue, but I want to say the amount of guards in TV isn't something too terrible, not like Caemlyn. Hell it feels like there are more mobs in WB than TV. This is all anecdotal though, but again I've raided TV a fair bit on my DS chars and my DF before I remorted and never really found it difficult to survive/get out, granted I was mainly solo raiding or raiding with Jestin. The one thing I'd say is the unpickable gates need to go, for all cities. But from memory only the western gate is unpickable from inside, so still leaves you with 3 gates. Wouldn't mind seeing a jump exit(I think those should be in all cities).
Again could be I just misjudge the amount of mobs there are in TV, but if the defenders are spread out only blocking at gates, it shouldn't be too difficult to just regroup, clear whatever mobs, then move as a group on the SE gate(assuming the eastern gate has emote damage?).

As to Keep, you could do much the same as you described with TV. Block GK, block maze and block the jump exit. Worst case scenario humans have to jump, meaning they are horseless, presumably some are low HPs and you probably kill 1 or 2 in keep, and if numbers permit you can harass/kill a couple more if they haven't stacked horses somewhere. Sure this won't work vs a group of 10 with warders and sedai to clear GK before they actually hit, but then again a DS group of 10 can clear most of the mobs in outer TV as well before moving on the general(assuming the new SE gate doesn't have emote damage, if it does then that does suck). So it ends up being a numbers game.

Could be the LS one needs adjusting to make it easier for lower numbers, since DS seems to be in a lull these days, but I think it'd be difficult(or at the very least an extra work load) for immortals to monitor which side is in a lull number wise. Wasn't too long ago when DS would have almost the same amount as LS, at least during my playtime. So you'd have a 7-10 on ds and a 15ish on LS with however many being statters. Or there'd be 6 on ds, with 15ish on LS but only 1-2 pkers on LS.

I probably agree with Jecks that they could use a downing, instead of thinking up new ways to overhaul the whole TG system - which I doubt will (ever) happen.

Elysia
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Elysia » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:04 pm

The general in TV is already way easier than the DS one to account for the difference in numbers. The TV general also narrates at a way later point than the LS general, due to mobol that only responds at a certain hps cap.

I don't think TV se gate has gate defenses either. West gate is pickable, but requires a very high amount of pick.

Re: fade requirements, pretty sure that the DS general already yields altqps or at least we had discussed implenting that upstairs and I haven't kept track of whether it was actually put in (and not like I will have time in the near future to do so). Not as a cityhit, the general is way too easy to count as a cityhit. The idea being that maybe by having it be worth aqps will show people that it's not so hard. Everyone who has hit a LS general in a war will know it's not so hard and it was downed 6 months ago on top of that.

Every imm who has looked at the TV general has said it's not hard. At this point, it's probably more an issue of lethargy than anything being wrong with it, but the altqps thing is/was a way to prove that.

The 200 turn-ins thing can be looked at, but otherwise the general consensus upstairs is that there is nothing wrong with how tough the TV general is.

Jaster
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Jaster » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Elysia wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:04 pm
The general in TV is already way easier than the DS one to account for the difference in numbers. The TV general also narrates at a way later point than the LS general, due to mobol that only responds at a certain hps cap.

I don't think TV se gate has gate defenses either. West gate is pickable, but requires a very high amount of pick.

Re: fade requirements, pretty sure that the DS general already yields altqps or at least we had discussed implenting that upstairs and I haven't kept track of whether it was actually put in (and not like I will have time in the near future to do so). Not as a cityhit, the general is way too easy to count as a cityhit. The idea being that maybe by having it be worth aqps will show people that it's not so hard. Everyone who has hit a LS general in a war will know it's not so hard and it was downed 6 months ago on top of that.

Every imm who has looked at the TV general has said it's not hard. At this point, it's probably more an issue of lethargy than anything being wrong with it, but the altqps thing is/was a way to prove that.

The 200 turn-ins thing can be looked at, but otherwise the general consensus upstairs is that there is nothing wrong with how tough the TV general is.

All of the tv gates have gate defenses.

Rig
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Rig » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:58 pm

The SE gate does have gate defenses. Remove gate defenses.

Rig
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Rig » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:58 pm

Jaster and I just posted at the same time. It must be true!

Elysia
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Elysia » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:00 pm

I stood there for 2 minutes meleeing mobs and nothing happened.

Tried again, with 2 testers and now it did fire on gate defenses. That took some time, sheesh.

Zeeb
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Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Zeeb » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:10 pm

Here is my 100% selfish concept:

Wrap war system into a Tarwin's Gap battle at around every 3 - 4 months.

This battle would require 2 immortals working against each other within the prescribed rules and be developed to be a fun mob raid for both the players and the immortals.

The rules would involve pieces that were collected over the last 3-4 months, so the immortal whose 'side' has done more prep will have an advantage... I'll outline the concept but obviously i just thought this up and could be discussed if two pker type immortals thought it would be fun. The idea is DS gets to take out small targets in hostile zones that hopefully promotes pk (1-4 people, but they can use more) while LS has to use superior numbers to take out the large fade leaders etc.

General hit points(from hitting general): [1] basic fade patrol, or [5] fade clan patrol(IE blarg/h'krreth/etc) [10] Dreadlord J
Move Points: (from Ko'bal turning in scalps of Lord Dremond of Fal Dara): 1 room per point per 30 minutes for main patrol
Scouts: (from Dha'vol killing some mob): Ability for fade to narrate the location and number of opposite defenders : 1 time per 5 turn ins
Muscle: (From Ghar'ghael turning in scalp of something): +1 ghar'ghael mob per 3 scalp
Gear: (from Ahf'rait scalp of something): gear upgrade for mob per 7 points
Bash: (Dhai'mon scalp of some mob): 1 mob allowed bash coding per 3 points

LS Mobs- based on general hits
moves - based on banner from h'kreth
scouts - based on banner from oakdoor
etc.

Obviously this would only work if immortals thought it would be fun, but I imagine it like a kind of chess game (both immortals are trying to win and have specific rules with of course the PC's being the kind of wildcards).

Elysia
Posts: 6164
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Logging in to humans inside rk = p

Post by Elysia » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:15 pm

Given how short on immortals we currently are due to RL, that is not going to consistently happen.

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