Melee calculator

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stark
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Melee calculator

Post by stark » Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:36 am

I've added a melee hit chance calculator to the WoT Playground. Available here:

https://writtenrealms.com/wot/playground/melee

To play with parry split, you can simulate the effect of multiple attackers by setting multiple OB-N values to be greater than 0. If you want to simulate being bashed, log onto a character and issue a 'sit' command. Then with 'stats', look at your db and pb while sitting. By using those value you can recreate that scenario, since the bashed state is a sitting state.

As with all of the playground, the code is open source so if you want to dig under the hood to see how those values are calculated, feel free to take a look here https://github.com/teebes/wotc/blob/pla ... e.vue#L138

Reyne
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Reyne » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:35 am

Awesome, thank you. This is just what I have been wanting.

Just from a few minutes of playing around it seems like the PB split is not nearly as detrimental as people think.

Adael
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Adael » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:50 pm

It definitely is as detrimental as people think, at least once you start buffing more than 2 people (or even at 2, when you eat a bash).
The % given is for your own hit (OB1) to land, not the combined total of all opponents hitting (Stark confirmed this, you can also check yourself by having a different value for OB1 and OB2, then swapping them, to see that the % chance to hit is not symmetric).

As an example, for say, a channie with roughly 140 db and 200 pb vs trolls with, say, 170 ob:

1 troll:
individual chance to hit, 0%

2 trolls:
individual chance to hit, 2.71%
chance that at least one lands a hit, 5.35%

3 trolls:
individual chance to hit, 10.59%
chance that at least one lands a hit, 28.52%

4 trolls:
individual chance to hit, 16.77%
chance that at least one lands a hit, 52.01%


And if you're bashed (sitting), with say 35 db and 150 pb (as above, these are rough numbers taken from the equipment trainer)

1 troll:
individual chance to hit, 46.23%

2 trolls:
individual chance to hit, 86.22%
chance that at least one lands a hit, 98.10%

3 trolls:
individual chance to hit, 93.48%
chance that at least one lands a hit, 99.97%

4 trolls:
individual chance to hit, 96.37%
chance that at least one lands a hit, 100%

Eol
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Eol » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:03 pm

My big take home from this calculator and the bash calculator - and I know this seems obvious..., but big OB people make a big difference. You put a few 180 people on there - yeah, it increases with each person. You start putting people with 200+ OB into the mix and the jumps are sizable in the hitting and the bash department. Back in the day I did things that now with the coding seem clearly insane - heavy clubs and other low OB set-ups. Being zerk, being a master, using threadies as a troll - all very potent contributors.

Reyne
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Reyne » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:22 pm

Adael wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:50 pm
a channie with roughly 140 db and 200 pb vs trolls with, say, 170 ob:
Yeah but can we use a realistic example here please? Who t f is running around with 340 defense? Maybe Gretchen?

Here is my actual choice given my stats and equipment, meaning 17 dex and not dripping in rares:

132 db and 178 pb is what I have with a full parry set up with a few dodge trinkets instead. If I were to go full dodge, I hit 145-147db (depending on how much food I'm carrying) and have 156 pb. This is with armor and master bonuses, all on foot. Wielding fblades.

- 132 db and 178 pb, fighting two trollocs with 180 OB each is a little under 13.78% chance they hit me in melee. Just shy of 28% to get hit in a given melee round.

- 146 db and 156 pb, again against 2 with 180 OB each is 13.78% chance they hit me in melee. Just shy of 28% chance to get hit in a given melee round.

This means that against 2 opponents or less, there's no difference?

Same numbers against 3 with 180 OB:

- parry set up (132 db and 178 pb): 26.33% chance to get hit.

- dodge set up (146 db and 156 pb): 24.38% chance to get hit.

There's basically no effective difference between my dodge and parry kits once you reach 3+ hitting at 180 OB!!!

That's not insignificant, especially for channelers who have their weaves interrupted if hit. The take away is just *never stand toe to toe against 3 or more.*

Now let's do bashing... with 146 db it's *roughly* about 20% to eat a bash from a player with a club at 180 OB, and with 132 db it is *roughly* 40%. However, if I am sitting in a room with 2+ and letting a bash timer finish I am usually screwing up. I'd only let the timers run if I were wanting to gamble that you miss and then my fireball hits you, which I'm generally not going to do against someone with a good bash set up.

*However* - the parry equipment also gives you significantly more abs absorption (9% for dodge versus over 30% in Orma gear) in addition to providing more chance to block hits when you are bashed. I'd have to run tons of numbers I don't want to, but anecdotally I survive *much longer* wearing Orma gear than I do full dodge. I can actually eat several bashes and live, versus eating 1-2 and popping like a cork. If you run into a mounted fade with a club and you have a dodge kit with less than 19 dex, you're screwed.

I don't know why I'd ever be standing toe to toe against 3 or more unless I was really feeling very confident I could sneak in a couple flame strikes and finish someone off (it's a fun gamble anyway).

With this tool I'm finally able to decently calculate effective hit points... I'm a little busy at the moment so that'll have to wait but I'd be very surprised if the EHP of my parry set up is less than full dodge, given my stats and available equipment.
Eol wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:03 pm
My big take home from this calculator and the bash calculator - and I know this seems obvious..., but big OB people make a big difference. You put a few 180 people on there - yeah, it increases with each person. You start putting people with 200+ OB into the mix and the jumps are sizable in the hitting and the bash department. Back in the day I did things that now with the coding seem clearly insane - heavy clubs and other low OB set-ups. Being zerk, being a master, using threadies as a troll - all very potent contributors.
This is also very true and actually a big reason why I dropped full dodge also. If I run into a mounted fade with a club or someone with malf, I am screwed wearing full dodge. Period. The difference in bash % between 132db and ~146db at that point are negligible*. Parry at least gives me a chance to get away.

* 200 OB riding with a club = 45% chance to bash 146 db versus 66% chance to bash 132 db. It's just not that significant of a difference anymore but then factor in the abs % and the parry still working somewhat when you're sat. I can almost feel the frustration coming through the connection when I'm bashed but parrying the hits anyway.


e: using a 16 lb weapon for these calculations, obviously your mileage may vary. However in general the better the bash kit the less effective difference there is between 132 db and 146 db.
Last edited by Reyne on Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Adael
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Adael » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:41 pm

Reyne wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:22 pm
Yeah but can we use a realistic example here please? Who t f is running around with 340 defense? Maybe Gretchen?
6 basic dodge pieces, grings, sids, kcuffs, red robe, cbelt, yew staff, master channe wimpy defensive lvl 3 ride with 18 dex and armor. Numbers should've been slightly lower since I forgot to drop the prac % in a few areas, but that's not any rares, and not that chortlesnorfling uncommon for a channie wanting to maximize their defense :P. You were a master saying the pb split seemed minimal, so I ran the numbers tailoring it to that (barring knowing your weapon setup, I went with the yew for maximum defense).
Also, 170 ob troll is decently realistic for a non-master troll who isn't strengthed up.

The point of my post was, a single troll isn't going to do dung against you as a channie, unless they have mobs or a friend. And the addition of more enemies scales things very nonlinearly.

Reyne
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Reyne » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:45 pm

Ahh dang it I left the stupid wristcuffs off the equipment trainer calculation so that mucks my numbers up a bit. I'm using fblades at the moment.

I'd have to sit down and really spreadsheet this out to get EHP numbers.
The point of my post was, a single troll isn't going to do dung against you as a channie, unless they have mobs or a friend. And the addition of more enemies scales things very nonlinearly.
Right, I guess my point was that I'd never be in a situation where I am standing toe to toe with a grin on my face against 3+ so the PB split isn't quite the dealbreaker that people think it is and I'd rather take the parry equipment versus 2 or less?

Still not hitting 340 defense with a yew, though. :p

IDK. I get wrecked wearing full dodge. It's fine for a while but then I run into someone that is going to bash me regardless and that's that.

e:
Adael wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:41 pm
the addition of more enemies scales things very nonlinearly.
OK I went back and re-did my numbers (edited that post) and now I am more confused. Perhaps someone can double check me here.

Say against 2 opponents with 180 OB:

146 DB and 156 PB = 13.78% to get hit by each
132 DB and 178 PB = 13.78% to get hit by each

... well that means between those two options there is literally no difference in odds to get hit in melee.

Against 3 with 180 OB:

146 DB and 156 PB = 24.38% to get hit by each
132 DB and 178 PB = 26.33% to get hit by each

Against 2 opponents with 170 OB:

146 DB and 156 PB = 9.4% to get hit by each
132 DB and 178 PB = 9.4% to get hit by each

Against 3 with 170 OB:

146 DB and 156 PB = 18.43% to get hit by each
132 DB and 178 PB = 20.13% to get hit by each

I dunno that seems extremely negligible to me unless I screwed something up real bad entering my numbers.

Out of curiosity I did against 4 with 170 OB:

146 DB and 156 PB = 24.38% chance to get hit by each
132 DB and 178 PB = 27.68% chance to get hit by each

I guess you've still got some vanishingly small chance with the dodge gear to evade a hit but even against 4... where is the PB split?

Against 2 at 170 OB:
146 DB and 200 PB: 1.58% to get hit by each
138 DB and 210 PB: 1.93% to get hit by each

Against 3 at 170 OB:
146 DB and 200 PB: 8.25% to get hit by each
138 DB and 210 PB: 9.40% to get hit by each
Last edited by Reyne on Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Adael
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Adael » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm

Reyne wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:45 pm
Right, I guess my point was that I'd never be in a situation where I am standing toe to toe with a grin on my face against 3+ so the PB split isn't quite the dealbreaker that people think it is and I'd rather take the parry equipment versus 2 or less?
Sure, noone wants to sit there buffing 3, especially as a dodger :P
And I don't think anyone consider(ed)(s) the split a dealbreaker -until- the idea of being bashed comes into play. That's really the only spot where it matters.
It comes down to having good situational awareness and knowing who you're buffing. "whois" the people in a fight. Are they masters or nonmasters? Look at them. Is it someone using a club or a dagger or a halberd? Do you need to reenter and try to engage on someone who you know can't touch you, so you can weave freely?
Reyne wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:45 pm
Still not hitting 340 defense with a yew, though. :p
http://www.wotmudarchives.org/tools/etrainer.html
Basic parry armor, good parry trinks, 15 str/17 dex, 85 weapon/dodge/shield, wimpy, non-master, no armor, lvl 3 ride, yew gives me 307. Higher prac %'s, armor, postures, and someone who either statted good or played long enough to reroll 18 dex make 335-340 pretty attainable.
Granted this is sacrificing db for pb, but in your case (as you said already essentially) as a master the dodge trinks probably won't make up the living ability of choosing all parry instead.

Adael
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Adael » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:10 pm

Reyne wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:45 pm
... where is the PB split?
My impression is the split really only shows itself when bashed because your defense drops so much.

Reyne
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:46 am

Re: Melee calculator

Post by Reyne » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:11 pm

Adael wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm
And I don't think anyone consider(ed)(s) the split a dealbreaker -until- the idea of being bashed comes into play. That's really the only spot where it matters.

It comes down to having good situational awareness and knowing who you're buffing. "whois" the people in a fight. Are they masters or nonmasters? Look at them. Is it someone using a club or a dagger or a halberd? Do you need to reenter and try to engage on someone who you know can't touch you, so you can weave freely?
Oh yeah definitely. I guess I'm more just saying I dunno where the "pb split means pb gear is trash" comes from really.
My impression is the split really only shows itself when bashed because your defense drops so much.
Hm yeah makes sense. In my case I just decided well I'm popping against someone with malf regardless and non-master solo trollocs can't really hurt me either way (stabs aside) so might as well grab the abs %.

Mostly just defending my equipment choices for my own self esteem trumpeting purposes :D

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